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Price Follows Value: Procter And Gamble

By Joe Ponzio on September 24, 2007  |  18 comments

Thanks all for your feedback—both in comments and e-mails. Let's start from the top: Babui asked for more examples on how price follows value and how buying and holding through drops can still allow you to come out ahead.

Today, let's look at another example: Procter & Gamble.

PG: A Fair Price For A Good Company

When the value of a business is growing, its stock price will generally follow in the long term. As such, it can be said that, over time, the markets are generally efficient; however, in the short-term, they can do crazy things. Such is the case with Procter & Gamble.

Take a look at the following chart (click the chart for the PDF version):

Procter And Gamble: Price Follows Value

From 1993 to 2007, Procter & Gamble grew from a $50 billion company to more than $250 billion (assuming it remains business as usual). Over the long term, the stock price grew from about $50 billion to about $250 billion. Price follows value.

Still, stock prices can do crazy things. In 1997, the stock price really began to get away from the value. In 1999, the stock market was pricing this $90 billion at $220 billion. And then, in what seemed like an instant, PG dropped some 50%.

Why Procter & Gamble Stock Got Crushed

The gamblers were expecting ever increasing net income (earnings). PG's price to earnings (P/E) ratio grew wildly out of hand. But a $100 billion company can only deliver so much; so, when Wall Street's earnings came in fair for a $100 billion company, but lackluster for a then-priced $220 billion company, Wall Street sold and the price dropped quickly.

Avoiding The Loss

Could you have avoided the loss? That depends on whether or not PG was a permanent holding or not. Only the absolute best companies in the world should ever be permanent holdings. For Buffett, one of those companies is Coca-Cola.

If PG was a permanent holding of yours, you would have had to have bought it prior to 1993 (it was never on sale after that). Then, you would not have worried about the 50% drop because you would have gone on to see a 12+% annual return on the price plus an extra 2% or so in dividends.

If PG was not a permanent holding, you would have not been a holder of its stock during the run up and massive drop because it would have been at or above its intrinsic value. And you would not have lost a dime.

Missing The Boat

"Nice story, Joe. But not owning PG would have led to missing out on a very nice return!"

True. Still, only half of investing is making money. The other half is not losing money. Forget, for a second, the massive run up and drop and focus on the years where PG was fairly priced—priced more or less right around its intrinsic value.

If, at any time in those years, PG did not perform as we expected—if PG stumbled a bit—the value of the company would have had a setback. The price would have followed.

When you buy companies that are priced right around their intrinsic value because you think the stock price (and value) will grow, you assume more risk than if you waited patiently for great opportunities. When a company is deeply discounted, a lot would have to go wrong for you to lose money.

But Buffett Said...

It's far better to buy a wonderful company at a fair price than a fair company at a wonderful price.

Instead of isolating Warren Buffett's individual quotes (as we tend to do), look to the spirit of the statement: You are better off owning wonderful businesses than mediocre ones.

Buffett isn't telling us to buy wonderful businesses or wait for a wonderful price. He's telling us to buy wonderful businesses and wait for a wonderful price. What would he be willing to pay for a mediocre business? Virtually nothing—which is why he avoids them in the first place.

It's The Same Old Story

Price follows value. Am I getting redundant yet? Good—that's the point. Procter & Gamble is another example of the rule. Might PG continue to grow and deliver shareholders a very substantial return? Perhaps. But "perhaps" is risk—and that's not a great way for us "little" investors to make money.

Written by Joe Ponzio on September 24, 2007

Joe Ponzio is the managing partner of the Ponzio Investors Funds and owner of Ponzio Capital Inc, a registered investment advisory and deep value portfolio management firm. The author of F Wall Street (the book and the website), his articles have appeared in hundreds of financial media, including Financial Planning Magazine, CNBC.com, Yahoo! Finance, and Reuters. He has appeared numerous times nationally on both radio and television, and has presented at universities and seminars across the United States.

Read more articles like this online at www.fwallstreet.com.
To learn more about Joe's portfolio management services, visit www.ponziocapital.com.
The Discussion
Babui' gravatar

Babui
Sep 24th, 2007
8 comments

Mucho gracias, Senor Ponzio. Much appreciated. Also - in my previous comment, I had mentioned that the 'other' posts were enjoyable but not informative. That did not come out the right way. I mean't to say that all posts were informative but I enjoyed the actual business analysis posts the most. Regards
Roger' gravatar

Roger
Sep 24th, 2007
1 comment

Joe you currently value PG @ $270,000,000 approx.
My valuation comes in at $320,000,000 assuming FCF continues to grow @ 21.4%, using Morningstars numbers and your spreadsheet.
Did you moderate this growth rate? and if so what was you're reasoning.
Thanks for a very informative and enjoyable website!
Hi Roger,

I definitely slowed PG's growth. 21.4% growth is extremely rapid and I wanted to be a little more conservative with the company's future. If I project growth at, say, 14% for the next few years, and then the company actually grows at 21%, I'll end up making more money!

Remember: The goal is to find "no-brainer" investments. We can easily use historical growth rates (or arbitrary ones) to value companies; still, if we're wrong, we'll lose money (or break even or make very little).

If a great company is at a significant discount using conservative growth rates, it is a "no-brainer" investment. In this case, PG (in my book) isn't a "no-brainer" so I'll move on.

Hope that helps!
Allen' gravatar

Allen
Oct 5th, 2007
47 comments

Hi Joe,

I do believe that price follows value. It's been shown through the history of the stock markets.

But I've been trying to explain this to my wife. She's a smart cookie and she won't accept this as an axiom. She needs real reasons. As far as she can see, stock prices have nothing to do with anything tangible. Looking at the markets in the short-term, I can't blame her. That's why she keeps most of her money in savings accounts.

I can show her that in the long-term that price does follow value, but the question still remains, "why"?

The best I can come up with is that if a business stopped today and liquidated all of their assests and liabilities, each shareholder would get their share of the business. If the value of the business was higher than the stock price, you would end up with more money than the amount you paid for the stock.

This seems like a tangible reason for why price follows value.

I realize this is almost a philosophical question, but I believe it's an important one, if you're trying to convince a skeptic (in this case, my wife) of the merits of investing like Warren Buffett.

So WHY does price follow value?
MikeR' gravatar

MikeR
Oct 5th, 2007
71 comments

Allen,

If price does not follow value, if value becomes greater than the price, someone will buy the company. Like Buffet completely buying a company and folding it into BRKA,
a management LBO, etc,

Peer' gravatar

Peer
Oct 5th, 2007
6 comments

"So WHY does price follow value? "

What happens when price doesn't follow value.
If the business is underpriced, like Mike said someone will buy it if they figure out they can profit from it.
If the business is overpriced, someone might find it an oppurtunity to profit from it by shorting it.
The market is all about making profits, and that powerful force will make the price folllow value in the LONG TERM.

Allen' gravatar

Allen
Oct 5th, 2007
47 comments

Thanks, guys - that makes sense, and it's something tangible that connects price to value. I appreciate the comments!
This is exactly why F Wall Street has the best visitors in the world. My internet has been down since last night so I couldn't respond to this or e-mails. Thanks all for stepping in!
Robert Crawford' gravatar

Robert Crawford
Oct 6th, 2007
24 comments

The spreadsheet you produced for the JNJ analysis is tremendously helpful, as is the multiplier. Any chance that you would post the same for the PG chart in this post -- including the calculations for intrinsic value?

Thanks,

Robert
I'll have to dig it up. When I do, I'll post it here.
Allen,

For the most part, the markets are generally efficient. In plain English, that means that, for the most part, the stock markets price businesses around their intrinsic value. At the end of the day, the stock market is nothing more than a place to buy and sell businesses, and those businesses are often fairly priced.

As a business grows, its value grows. As its value grows, its price follows. It is simple supply and demand. People are generally not willing to sell a $1 business for less than $1, nor buy that business for more than $2. When the business grows to be worth $1.50, the offers to buy and sell move accordingly.

That said, from time to time in the short term, the markets can do crazy things. Because stock owners are generally driven by greed and fear, they are often irrational and may sell a $1 business for $0.50. It doesn't happen often, but enough.

Eventually, when that $1 business grows to be worth $1.50, people realize their mistakes and are willing to pay $1.50 for that business again.

How do we know that the mispriced business will regress to the norm? Remember that every single stock trade is a business transaction. If a company is priced too cheaply, it will be an acquisition target or will start privatizing (essentially buying its own money for 50% off). If a company is priced too high, people will eventually "come to their senses" and stop buying at such high prices. And then the supply and demand rears its ugly head and the stock price heads south.

Take a look at the Adobe example in this post. The truth is that PG and Adobe are two of the bazillion examples of price following value. It has been that way for the last 100 years, and there is no reason to believe that anything will be different 100 (or five) years from now.

Hope that helps. As always, post if it doesn't!
Nelson' gravatar

Nelson
Oct 20th, 2007
6 comments

With the finance industry in trouble there must be some opportunities there eg WFC, USB, C, WM..

What do you think of these companies and how do you value banks?

Thanks for the great blog!
Mike' gravatar

Mike
Oct 20th, 2007
1 comment

I was thinking the same thing about the banking institutions as well. Some of these have little or none exposure to sub-prime lending and have sufficient reserves but will get taken down with the rest of the panic selling. Many of these are dividend paying companies as well. What do you think Joe? Any good values caught your attention in this sector yet?
MikeR' gravatar

MikeR
Oct 20th, 2007
71 comments

As Joe has pointed out it is tough to evaluate financial sector stocks. But, Buffet has recently purchases BAC, and WFC is near the price he purchased it a couple of years ago. Here is a good link for seeing what he, and others, are doing,

http://www.gurufocus.com/ListGuru.php
Psp627' gravatar

Psp627
Jul 15th, 2008
1 comment

Joe,
Great site! Your explanations are clear and concise. One question: how do you make the price follows value charts? Do you create historical intrinsic value by projecting 10 years into the future or do you use the actual growth rates in cash flow for the past period (ie, in the chart listed above do you use actual FCF growth from 1993 to 2007 to calculate the 1993 historical value)?
In my charts on this site, I use the actual figures as they were reported where possible, and then use projections for the future based on what I might have assumed at the time. That's a great point, and I will definitely clarify in future charts.
Roke6362' gravatar

Roke6362
Feb 10th, 2009
2 comments

Joe:

What are your thoughts about PG now? I value it around $77/share, or $224.5B. This is based on a 10-year normalized pre-tax operating margin of 21.8%, and an after-tax margin of 15.3%.

I calculated a WACC of 5.7%, or a normalized P/E of 17.54. Total revenue for 2008 was $83,503. Currently, the company is trading at $51.21/share, or $151B.

This looks like a MOS of at least 34%. Thanks in advance for your response.
I'll have to revisit it again. Admittedly, I haven't been following PG too closely as I have been looking in harder hit areas.
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