You are here: Home » the Blog » Companies Analyzed (Generals) » Why Banks? Why Wells Fargo? Why Now?

Why Banks? Why Wells Fargo? Why Now?

By Joe Ponzio on January 28, 2009  |  16 comments

The other day, I said that I had purchased Wells Fargo to the tune of 10% of the F Wall Street portfolio. As it continued to sink, I made another purchase in the $16s to bring the total Wells Fargo investment back up to 10% of the portfolio's assets.

The natural question, of course, is: Why? Why a bank? Why Wells Fargo? And why now?

Buying Banks During The Credit Crisis

We all know the old Buffett saying: Be fearful when people are greedy, and be greedy when people are fearful. Then there's the old adage: Buy when there's blood in the streets. Then, there's this one: You pay a very high price in the stock market for a cheery consensus — the title of a 1979 Forbes article by Warren Buffett.

In that article, Buffett wrote:

A second argument [of why stocks should be avoided] is made that there are just too many question marks about the near future; wouldn't it be better to wait until things clear up a bit? You know the prose: "Maintain buying reserves until current uncertainties are resolved," etc. Before reaching for that crutch, face up to two unpleasant facts: The future is never clear; you pay a very high price in the stock market for a cheery consensus. Uncertainty actually is the friend of the buyer of long-term values.

In closing, Buffett wrote:

There may well be some period in the near future when financial markets are demoralized and much better buys are available in equities; that possibility exists at all times. But you can be sure that at such a time the future will seem neither predictable nor pleasant.

That argument was true in 1979; it was true in 1974; it was true in 1987; it was true in...well, you get the idea. The only way to really buy when there's blood in the streets is to buy when the future seems unpredictable and unpleasant. If you "wait it out," you are almost certain to grossly underperform the markets...and even bonds...over the long-term.

Predicting The Future When The Future Is Unpredictable

If you read the aforementioned Buffett article carefully, you'll notice that he talks about the market's unpredictability. Over the long-term, American businesses will grow, even if (or though) the short-term market and business pain is severe and prolonged. The key, then, is to invest in businesses that will grow over the long-term at times when the short-term market and business pain is severe.

Obviously, not all of your investment decisions need to be in companies that are taking a ruthless beating. But...when looking for opportunities, well, you pay a very high price in the stock market for a cheery consensus.

Mr. Market — The Bank Bully of 2007...2008...2009...

When the stock market is feeling depressed, he (Mr. Market) can get downright mean. Over the past two years, he's been an utter bully to bank and financial stocks. In some cases, Mr. Market's quick and harsh temper is well guided. Sometimes, he's just being a jerk.

Right now, Mr. Market is trying to figure out whether or not the U.S. banking system will survive. On the one hand, he believes that virtually all banks should be nationalized, thereby wiping out shareholders and sending their stock prices plunging. If that's not bad enough, he believes that the entire U.S. is on the verge of collapse.

I've said it before — if the entire country collapses, the least of your problems is losing money in the stock market:

[The world] will still be here tomorrow. And you have to invest the same way for one simple reason: If everything does go to hell in a hand basket and the US (or your home) economy — and every business in it — fails, your money is worthless anyways.

So, we look to where Mr. Market is venting his anger...fear...frustration. And there, we find banks.

Why Wells Fargo? Candid Management.

In the banking sector, you'll be hard-pressed to find a management team as open and owner-oriented as the one at Wells Fargo. To get a better idea of this management-shareholder "partnership," take a look at their annual reports. Each one starts roughly the same way:

To Our Owners. Here's what we did well; here's what we did poorly. Here's why...and what we're doing about it.

As a side-by-side comparison, take a look at the cheerleader language of Bank of America's 2006 annual report vs. that of Wells Fargo in the same year. They both start the same way: We had a great year. Here's what we accomplished. BofA leaves it at that; Wells Fargo talks about where it went wrong and what it is doing to become even better.

I'm not saying that Bank of America is bad; however, as an owner, I'd rather get a little more straight-talk from management.

Why Wells Fargo? Stable Business.

In this credit crisis, nothing is predictable on a day-to-day basis. Will housing bottom? Will write-offs get worse or is the worst behind us? What news is "priced in" and what is still debatable? If you're trying to outsmart the markets on a daily basis, you need to predict tomorrow before everyone else does.

About the only thing we do know with a degree of certainty is that the big banks had more write-downs leading up to their earnings announcements this month.

The question we need to ask: What banks will survive through this mess and be bigger five- and ten- years from now? If we can figure that out, and if we can make a smart purchase today, it doesn't matter if Wells Fargo lost $10 or $10 billion last quarter. We're looking forward.

Prior to its acquisition of Wachovia, Wells Fargo had three "segments" to its business:

  • Community Banking Group. Basically, the "bank" in the traditional sense of the word, serving consumers and small businesses with everything from checking accounts and mortgages to mutual funds and IRAs.
  • Wholesale Banking Group. The "institutional" arm of their business. This segment handles their "large business" lending and financing, institutional money management (eg., pension fund management), and large real estate lending.
  • Wells Fargo Financial. Credit cards, auto loans, personal loans, and other "small" lending (relative to the Wholesale Banking Group). Think of this as the "personal credit" arm of the Community Banking Group.

Losses aside, the acquisition expands every one of these areas. Before we get to the losses, let's examine how Wells Fargo will likely be affected by the credit crisis in each of its core segments.

Community Banking Group

Mortgage losses happen here. If Wells Fargo made bad loans (which we know they did), they will take the losses or set aside a credit reserve for losses in this segment. Though the company has been increasing its credit reserve in the face of losses, this segment of its business has actually been growing.

You just have to look beyond the quarterly earnings.

Through September 30, 2008 (and we'll know more about the most recent quarter soon), revenue increased 14% to $7.20 billion in third quarter 2008 from $6.32 billion a year earlier. Temporary credit losses aside, WFC was able to grow revenue handsomely last year. Keeping in mind that management is shareholder-oriented and that they have a strong history of keeping expenses down, this revenue will eventually turn into cash, once they solve their credit problems.

Wholesale Banking Group

In this segment of the business, revenue fell 17% in the first three quarters versus the same time in the year prior. No surprise here—a portion of their revenues is derived from investment fees. When the markets plummet 40%, fees tend to follow.

The drop in revenue is no surprise as it is cyclical revenue that largely depends on how people feel about the markets. When the markets are high, this segment will do well; when they tank, this segment will probably perform poorly.

The wholesale banking group is small relative to the Community Banking Group—just $2 billion or so in annual revenues versus $30 billion or so in the Community Banking Group. So, no real cause for concern.

Wells Fargo Financial

Brining in about 15% to 20% of Wells Fargo's revenues, this segment reported flat revenues for the first three quarters of last year versus the same period a year prior.

Putting It All Together

All three segments took hits to earnings due to increased credit reserves for expected losses. Earnings aside (ignore them), in the toughest banking and credit environment we've ever seen, Wells Fargo has been able to grow its top line. Eventually, that will translate into wealth for shareholders, assuming the company survives.

Will it survive?

Had I posted this a few days earlier, I would have written that a wide-scale nationalization of US Banks was highly unlikely because it would have been a premature move, largely hyped by the media, based on the results of a few very large banks. Though it could happen at some point in the future, it won't happen today.

Wells Fargo is doing a great job keeping customers and increasing revenues. If this government-run bad bank idea goes through, things may be a little easier for Wells Fargo if it transfers some of its bad assets off the books. If it doesn't take advantage of the bad bank, it will have a tougher time; but, that's no reason to believe it won't be around and larger five and ten years from now.

How can I come to that conclusion? In the next post, we'll look at the Wachovia deal. For now, let's just say that Wells Fargo, without the Wachovia deal, could have built its credit reserves mostly from internally generated cash (unlike Countrywide, that probably would have died without Bank of America); so, this credit crisis appears to be a temporary strain on Wells Fargo, not a permanent set back, from which it will have to rebuild.

Why Now?

Will Wells Fargo be cheaper a week...a month from now? I have no idea. That fact was obvious because I reported our first purchase here at $23.41 and was, just four days later, down 41% on my original purchase. If I knew Wells Fargo would hit $13.74, I would have waited to buy it.

It doesn't change the fact that I believe that I made a smart purchase, even if I didn't bottom tick the stock.

Written by Joe Ponzio on January 28, 2009

Joe Ponzio is the managing partner of the Ponzio Investors Funds and owner of Ponzio Capital Inc, a registered investment advisory and deep value portfolio management firm. The author of F Wall Street (the book and the website), his articles have appeared in hundreds of financial media, including Financial Planning Magazine, CNBC.com, Yahoo! Finance, and Reuters. He has appeared numerous times nationally on both radio and television, and has presented at universities and seminars across the United States.

Read more articles like this online at www.fwallstreet.com.
To learn more about Joe's portfolio management services, visit www.ponziocapital.com.
The Discussion
Chris' gravatar

Chris
Jan 28th, 2009
3 comments

I think your analysis is solid, and I think that you will do well in WFC in the long term. In the short term, no one knows, but I agree that Wells Fargo is a step above many of her peers (even with the Madoff holdings coming to light). Particularly the temperament of the annual reports pleases me--it is rare to find such a good attitude in management. I can imagine that this was a significant aspect in WB's investment as well.

As a general question, is there a composite list of the F Wall Street Portfolio? I know a few holdings, eg Wells Fargo, Apple, etc., but I was curious if you have a complete list. Frankly, I have little interest in duplicating the portfolio (indeed, I am short Apple), but I am always interested in reviewing analysis, and getting ideas for doing my own.

Thanks for another excellent post.
Rene' gravatar

Rene
Jan 28th, 2009
80 comments

Well, you almost convinced me with your last post and I went and looked at it some more. I thought about buying it somewhere under $15, but decided to pass. My problem is not that I think all banks are going to be nationalized, or that Armageddon is near (I have yet to buy my first shotgun or more than a weeks supply of canned goods). My problem is that I'm nearly certain that all three of the business are going to suffer badly for several years. I hope I'm wrong, but I think mortgage, credit card and even institutional loans are going to keep on going bad. Will WFC survive? Probably. If it survives, will it thrive? Most likely, since it will emerge as one of the stronger banks. For me though, there are too many other industries and companies with better "story lines" and I'm going to concentrate on those. Then again, I'm starting to realize that I'm a lot greedier than you and it will probably bite me, but, c'est la vie.
Ankur Javeri' gravatar

Ankur Javeri
Jan 28th, 2009
2 comments

Joe,

Have you done a burn down analysis on their loan portfolio? That is probably the best way to see if it will survive.
Aaron' gravatar

Aaron
Jan 28th, 2009
6 comments

Joe- Your argument, while persuasive, seems to hinge entirely on guts. Was there any financial data that you used to decide what your share price and MOS would be?

I will admit that the more and more I think about investing, I cannot help but come to two conclusions: a) find a business with good economics(moat or branded) and b) identify management that is exceptional. Because at the end of the day, all of our growth rate guesstimates rely on the folks running the show. They need to either be shareholder friendly (WFC, BRK.A, etc) or love their company (AAPL) and do everything possible to make it the best.

Because it really seems to me that you placed a bet on both a) and b) above without all the CROIC/ROE/margin analysis you have done for JNJ, WMT, AEO, etc.

Love your work - Thanks.
Aaron
Chris: You can see the changes to the portfolio by reading through the posts. Back in October of 2008, I wrote:

After the first year's performance, I had some discussions with visitors regarding a portfolio people can track. The problem with doing so is that a lot of people would then focus on short-term results, and that detracts from everything this site stands for.

You can see in this post that we hold MMM, JNJ, WMT, NTRI, and now WFC. The next update will be in June of 2009.

Rene: As Gordon Gekko said, "Greed is good. Greed works." Add in Buffett: "Be greedy when others are fearful." I think you are into smaller market cap opportunities, right? I'm not against them; but, I don't think there's any specific reason a smaller company would reach its intrinsic value any sooner or later than a larger company.

The other day, a friend asked me about small caps and I told him this: I don't look specifically at companies based on size. The past year or so has been largely about "bigger" companies...but not entirely. When I was buying NTRI, it was a $300 million market cap company.

Ankur and Aaron: I'm not done posting the analysis. The problem is that I am limited in how much I can write in any single post. (A 20-page post would be quite long!) I don't regularly prepare 20-page theses on my investment decisions (if you have to, you should probably skip it); still, I think that a more in-depth post and analysis is merited because this is the first time F Wall Street is investing in a "panic" business. Prior to this, we've looked more at "overlooked" companies.

This article was more about the moat and management of Wells Fargo. We still have to look at the Wachovia deal and put a price on the business.
Rene' gravatar

Rene
Jan 28th, 2009
80 comments

You are sort of correct that I tend to like small caps that I feel have a good shot at becoming large caps. However, that is not my main criteria. My starting point is "what does everyone else hate? From there, I try to find out if they are right in hating it, or if it's just the typical short horizon view that is so dominant these days. I just love seeing all these "buy and hold is dead" articles, all the "has WB lost it?" commentaries and the 20% drops in a good company's stock because it missed estimates by $0.01. In some cases, I can't figure out if Mr. Market is right in hating a stock or an industry and then I leave it alone. In the case of WFC, I hate the whole industry, while I recognize they are one if not the best in class. I just see a lot of risk and rather limited upside, but mostly, I just don't know, so I'm looking elsewhere.
Daniel' gravatar

Daniel
Jan 28th, 2009

A couple other positives:

1) The current spread in rates for mortgages placed now
2) The mortgage porfolio's earning power once properly discounted for the unsustainable
3) The almost certain fact that the savings rate will ramp up (250-750B per year) and that money has to go somewhere. The x2 physical footprint could collect a lot of this, no?)
susan' gravatar

susan
Jan 29th, 2009
1 comment

Wachovia (pre-First Union) once shared a similar philosophy and smart management ethos with Wells Fargo. Some of us rejoiced to see Wells Fargo swoop in--perhaps, we hope, to restore the old Wachovia ethos--and take over what First Union corrupted (they discarded The FU name which they'd sullied, hoping to co-opt respect for the old Wachovia name while they continued down the same First Union rathole of practices). I agree; it's a good bet that two banks (Wells Fargo and what was left of the original Wachovia) with a tradition of doing it right will survive and prosper.
Jordan' gravatar

Jordan
Jan 29th, 2009
1 comment

Interesting analysis. For further analysis on the market along these lines visit http://www.marketminder.c....
BigMac' gravatar

BigMac
Jan 29th, 2009
1 comment

I am not an expert on banks or Wells, but it seems any analysis needs to begin with the balance sheet.

A bank generally has $100 of loans for every $10 of shareholders equity. If mortgages are 50% of your loans ($50), your average down payment is 10%, and residential real estate is down 30% in value, you are vulnerable to losses of about 20% ($10) on your mortgage portfolio. If loan losses are $10 your equity is gone and your bank is a zero. It seems all banks today, including Wells, are facing this harse math.

Clearly Wells managment is better than most. What concerns me is that better than most my not have been good enough to survive this asset meltdown.

I think the Buffett/Graham quote most relevant to Wells is: "margin of safety - the most important three words in investing". It is not clear to me yet what the margin of safety is in Wells...I look forward to the rest of your analysis on the subject.

Keep up the good work on the website!


Amit' gravatar

Amit
Jan 30th, 2009

Joe, great time to buy WFC indeed, if there ever was going to be a time to do it.

guess we all see value in different things, but we won't even agree to invest on any one in particular just because we see value. (hope that makes sense).



BTW folks, Procter & Gamble at 55$ today, interesting indeed
Jojos' gravatar

Jojos
Feb 3rd, 2009
1 comment

Hi Joe
I have been some serious reading on Wells Fargo's annual reports and been doing some analysis on the companies financials and comparing among the other banks. I must say that thus far, I find WFC to be a solid bank. The issue I'm struggling with now is how do i put a value to the bank?

I have done a number of analysis for other non-banks (JNJ, PG etc etc) and typically I would use the cash flow model to calculate the intrinsic value. But for banks, I'm at a lost. Should I be using cash flow model or is there a more accurate or should I say practical way of calculating their intrinsic value.

I would greatly appreciate it if you can share your thoughts and how dud you calculate the intrinsic value of WFC. hopefully it won't be a 20 pager as you describe in your post above ...

Cheers.

Jojo
Frank' gravatar

Frank
Feb 9th, 2009

Joe,

I've heard you say time and time again that Financial Institutions were outside of your sphere of confidence. What has changed? We all know that Buffet is betting big on Wells Fargo but is that a reason to jump in with him? He's made some big bets lately such as GE and Goldman Sachs that some question, but look at the terms he received. 10% for 10 years seems like he is hardly taking a risk. I've been on the edge with WFC myself especially considering the fact that I can get in cheaper then his $20 entry point. But I continue to come back to the simple fact that I don't understand the banks and after seeing what has transpired over the past 2 years, I'm going to say that nobody understood the banks, including the CEO's who bought up these ailing institutions and invested in their own bank stocks at prices far higher then they are at now. Joe, I'd love to see some analysis here outside of an "If Come" bet. Remember, you can follow buffet in, but it's a lot harder to follow him out. I'm going to leave you with one last thought, Mr Market has been equally as brutal on many many other strong companies. I think those arguments are par right now for all companies and really can't be used as a compelling argument, as a bet on the S&P index could be made based on Mr. Market current mood. Why is WFC a better place to put your money the other companies, such as the ones that have been in your sphere of confidence?
I hope that the entire series of posts, now three strong and growing, will make sense of my line of thinking. Over the past year, I have been studying and learning to increase my sphere to include financials and banks.

I would never follow Buffett into or out of any position based on his thinking. As I said in this post about following gurus into or out of positions:

It's a silly strategy that leads to losses because you may end up as that follower that made every wrong move.

> (I also joked about shorting oil, going long in gold, and stuffing 50% of your portfolio under your mattress. That would have worked out really well!)
Kevin' gravatar

Kevin
Apr 8th, 2009
2 comments

Joe,

Where do you get the FCF info for financial companies? I don't see them on Morningstar. Do you manually calculate them?

Thanks,
Kevin
Kevin,

For now, you have to do it by hand. Morningstar doesn't carry it and other sites (in my opinion) are unreliable at best.
Join The Discussion

Your Name
Mar 10th, 2010

Remember me on this computer
To help keep the F Wall Street website free from comment spam, we require that you have javascript enabled to post a comment. Please turn on javascript and refresh this page to load the comment form.

Joe Ponzio's F Wall Street

Submitting Your Comment

Please wait while your comment is submitted. (It may take a moment.) Comments on F Wall Street are moderated which means that your comment will appear only after it has been reviewed by Joe. Comments are typically reviewed and approved (or denied) quickly, except between 11:30PM and 5:00AM (CST) – Joe has to sleep some time!

Joe Ponzio's F Wall Street

Thank You For Participating!

Thank you for participating on F Wall Street. Once your comment has been approved, it will appear here. While waiting, check out some other articles on the blog or click here to return to the article.

» Buy F Wall Street at Amazon.com

Excel 2007|Excel 2003
(ZIP, 168kb) (ZIP, 138kb)

Search F Wall Street

Powered by Google

Subscribe to F Wall Street

E-mail or RSS updates. And it's free!

Enter your e-mail address below

Sun @ 11:09AM | View comment
Eric T said,

Instead of inventory turnover, I use the cash conversion cycle, or CCC.It is more accurate for companies that manufacture and...
Understanding the True Profit Margin

Sun @ 5:48AM | View comment
Diversification said,

well it all depends on the correlation between the stocks you have choosen many big mutual funds are having the...
The Dangers Of Overdiversification

Sun @ 4:46AM | View comment
sandesh trivedi said,

Very well explained joe. i believe one must also take into account the nature of the product being manufactured while...
Understanding the True Profit Margin

Sat @ 10:19AM | View comment
Ron said,

Hi Joe,Is there a rule of thumb of percentage of net shares sold by insiders where we should start to...
When To Watch Out For Insider Selling

Sat @ 10:18AM | View comment
jan said,

joe, any thoughts on jackson hewitt? what were the risks that played out in your mind when you decided...
BreitBurn Energy: Playing the Commodities Crash

Fri @ 3:20PM | View comment
Joe Ponzio said,

If you don't have the CRB Commodities Index book and software (issued each year for a few hundred bucks), your...
BreitBurn Energy: Playing the Commodities Crash