I am a bull on America and the stock markets, even if we see more short-term, quotational (and real) pain in the overall markets. On October 30, 2008, GDP numbers will be released, likely confirming what we've all known for some time — we're in (or technically starting) a recession.
No matter how short or long, shallow or deep the recession turns out to be, you can usually bet on one thing: The stock markets tend to rise before the economy turns around. So, forget timing the markets. Instead, let's look at timing your purchases.
We all know Buffett's saying: Be fearful when others are greedy; be greedy only when others are fearful. We also know that this likely means that now is the time to get greedy, and that any continued decline means that we should all "get greedier."
Investors, however, tend to have a natural tendency to want to ride waves. As the markets are falling, we tend to hold off on purchases, hoping to squeeze the last nickel out of our buys. When they rise, we find some satisfaction in watching our positions grow 1% or 3% in a single day.
Considering all we know about Buffett...how backwards is that? (And don't tell me you don't experience those feelings at least a little. Unless you have 50+ years experience and $60 billion, you know exactly what I'm talking about.)
When is a good time to buy stocks? All the time...so long as the price is right. But, here's a little tip to help shake the market fears out of you: Only buy stocks when the markets are falling.
I'm not talking about buying in a "down" market like we've been experiencing over the past year. I'm talking about buying stocks on days like yesterday — a day when the Dow opened at 9,027.84 and never saw that level again, falling more than 700 points (7.8%) before ending the day down "just" 5.6%.
I've said it before and I'll say it again — most people should not be entirely "in the markets" in general, and should opt for an intelligent strategy of bonds, or bonds and a few gigantic, "safe" companies.
Not sure if that's you? Make it a point to pull the trigger only when the markets are falling. Then...make it a point to close your browser and walk away for three full market days. If that's too much to handle, consider changing your strategy.
Believe me — when you can make purchases knowing that the markets are falling and that you'll likely lose money for the day, investing will "make sense" just a little bit more.
I mentioned that there have been changes made to the F Wall Street portfolio. As I'm at home, I can't tell you the exact prices right now (I have them at my office); but, I can tell you that we:
It seems like an awful lot of activity; but, Landry's aside, it was all for one simple reason: As the markets began to melt down, I made a bet that some potentially "permanent" holdings would become available at very attractive, perhaps-never-again-seen prices. For that, I wanted to have cash on hand, as a Coca-Cola with a moderate margin of safety is a lot more attractive than an American Eagle with a moderate margin of safety (if it still had/has one).
(The reason for that discrepancy is predictability. You know Coca-Cola will be around, and most likely bigger, ten years from now. AEO? Though I don't think it's going out of business, I think we can all agree that it doesn't offer the clarity of a Coca-Cola. The jump from "discount" to "fair value" would provide substantially the same returns; so, it's better to opt for the easier, more predictable opportunity.)
So, I pulled the trigger on a new, perhaps permanent company — 3M (MMM). I won't make the "permanent or not" decision on 3M if and until it approaches intrinsic value. Still, F Wall Street invested as though it is a permanent holding (20% of the portfolio) because it seems to offer the clarity and predictability I like in permanent holdings.
3M was added yesterday at $58.86 per share — the average of the high, low, open, and close for the day because I never discussed a price target for it before. Here's the chart of intrinsic value versus market capitalization:

As you can see, the net price change in MMM over the last eleven years has been abysmal (even including dividends). I don't attribute that to a bad business; I think it's because 3M got overpriced a long time ago, and the markets had to wait for the business' value to catch up.
So, the F Wall Street portfolio is now more invested than not, and has four positions, three of which make up the lion's share of the value. For all intents and purposes, it is highly concentrated; but, I think our risk is a lot lower than the risks that many of these mutual fund managers are taking on General Motors and Amylin.
Portfolio performance? We'll look at it again in June — the site's second anniversary. Until then, we'll focus on making intelligent decisions, regardless of the short-term price outcome.
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Mon @ 12:45PM | View comment
g said,
good timing!
BreitBurn Energy: Playing the Commodities Crash
Sun @ 1:14AM | View comment
mike said,
ROIC is not based on earnings. it's just EBIT * (1-t) / invested capital. The flaw with ROIC...
What The Heck Is CROIC?
Thu @ 8:00AM | View comment
Cale Smith said,
New Ponzio Capital site looks great, Joe, and good to see you back posting!
BreitBurn Energy: Playing the Commodities Crash
Wed @ 5:50PM | View comment
kalidasa said,
in correction to an earlier post, it is Sham Gad(www.gadcapital.com) or www.shamgad.blogspot.com
Hedge Funds and the Early Buffett Partnership
Tue @ 3:29PM | View comment
Joe Ponzio said,
I think it got overheated. I still feel like it's a good long-term holding (if the buy price is right)....
Is Nutrisystem Healthy?
Tue @ 2:48PM | View comment
Nutrisystem Coupon said,
Dude, what happened to this stock? You would think in January this stock would be jumping through the roof...
Is Nutrisystem Healthy?
g
Oct 24th, 2008
1. While huge companies like 3M, GE, KO and JNJ are trading at an apparent discount to their intrinsic value, they only seem that way when giving much weight to favorable earnings forecasts. I don't know if these companies would still seem highly attractive if you placed more weight in your analysis on the possible downside of these companies (i.e earnings taking a major hit for even 1 or 2 years in the next decade, or even worse).
2. There are many smaller companies with strong balance sheets that are getting hammered in the market these days. Focusing on these companies at this time should be far more rewarding, and in my opinion, less risky than the mentioned companies.
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wbfan
Oct 24th, 2008
Do you really think that smaller companies will take less of a hit (percentage-wise) than a JNJ or KO?!? Or that they're more predictable?!?
I think FWallStreet is spot on in this environment IMHO and more Buffett-like than it has been all year.
-wbfan
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Leon
Oct 24th, 2008
I don't understand what the fourth position is: I only know three.
1 JNJ
2 WMT
3 MMM
4 ??
What is the fourth?
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g
Oct 24th, 2008
I agree that the selections have been more buffet-like than all year. But they are the picks that Buffet is making when he is in charge of allocating 100,000,000,000 dollars. Unfortunately, that is not a problem that I face. I think that we can probably find companies trading below net working capital, and researching beaten-down, smaller companies with strong fundamentals at this time will be far more rewarding.
If you want to be 50 cent dollars, now is the time to do it. I've been looking at companies with market caps under 1 Billion, that have little debt and cash as a high percentage of their market cap. I think opportunities like these are much more worth my research time. So while they may be more "volatile" in their stock price movements, that does not concern me the least bit when I am certain that in a liquidation, they have cash and enough strong assets to back up a very large percentage of market share.
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wbfan
Oct 24th, 2008
I agree that there are gret opportunities in smaller companies but I also know that Buffett's greatest successes were in Coca-Colas and American Expresses when everyone else was scared or stupid. I think that's why Buffett put 40% in Amex and 20% of Berkshire in KO but never seemed to commit major resources to small $0.50 dollars.
Five or ten big easy bets (IMO) is better that ten or twenty small, less predictable bets. Different strokes for different folks. I think the strategy is brilliant in this market. If you can buy $0.50 dollars, why not buy the ones that are almost guaranteed to work out regardless of the size?
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Rene
Oct 24th, 2008
80 comments
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wbfan
Oct 24th, 2008
Joe - CAN WE GET SOME CLARIFICATION ON THE STRATEGY HERE?!?
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Alex
Oct 24th, 2008
It%u2019s always good to see a new post when I log on, (especially in the midst of this incredible sale!) I have a quick question...
When making the 'Market Cap vs. Intrinsic Value' Chart, how are you judging the Intrinsic Value of 1997, 1998...?
I%u2019m trying to create a chart of my own like this one, but I can%u2019t find pre-1997 data in order to discount the cash flows back to calculate the various intrinsic values.
Are you using 1987 (10yr) data for inputs into the intrinsic value of 1997? Or are you estimating it somehow else?
Thanks a million Joe!
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Rene
Oct 24th, 2008
80 comments
Take Joe's AEO. It's under $10 right now. So what I'm gonna try to determine is this, which of the teen retailers is not only gonna survive, but take the market share left by the bankruptcies? And so on in each industry. I own some AMAT, so what I need to find out is, who's the strongest, AMAT, KLAC or LRCX? In other words, who is gonna eat who's lunch?
I absolutely will be applying all the criteria we all agree with here, but as always, the big picture will weight heavily with me. So I'm not talking about wild speculation, but I'm not going to even entertain the possibility of the S&P 500 becoming the S&P 100, with only the JNJs and WMTs surviving.
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Jae Jun
Oct 25th, 2008
12 comments
This is how I did it.
A DCF means the future cash flows. If 1997 is the current year, 1998~2008 you already have. Then apply a 5% terminal rate for 2009~2018 from the 2008 number.
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Joe Ponzio
Oct 25th, 2008
Joe on twitter
Ponzio Capital
With mid-sized companies, the future is less certain; hence, I put a smaller portion in these. Same with small companies. When it comes down to risk versus potential reward, there is a much greater chance that a mid- or small-sized company falls off the face of the Earth, or is crushed by a competitor, or is knocked out by the economy, etc. than for the larger companies; so, they get less of the portfolio's money.
I can say with a high degree of confidence that JNJ, WMT, and 3M will report earnings much higher five and ten years from now; so, I put my money where my confidence is. That said, if it was "business as usual" in the markets and these big, reliable companies were mostly trading at fair or high prices, I'd be looking for smaller opportunities. Right now, however, traders are willing to sell some of America's finest businesses for bargain prices; so, I think it's time to scoop up those permanent holdings.
Rene is trying to figure out which teen retailer will come out a winner -- a great strategy which, if done correctly, will likely provide returns greater than WMT or 3M in the short-term. If, however, you can't get a grasp on who will come out on top, you shouldn't horse around just because prices are low. Again -- it depends on what you are good at.
Personally, I strayed away from financials for the entire year because they're outside my sphere. When I bought Graham Corp, I didn't try to do so at the bottom like a lot of great investors. Instead, I waited until there were signs of recovery/success in the business. I'm not a bottom feeder. I'm a purchaser of businesses at attractive prices.
Like Seth Klarman has about his strategy, I'll miss the bottom and the top, but I'm not trying to pick a bottom or a top. I'm trying to buy stocks the way I'd buy a hot dog stand or a movie theater. And if I'm going to buy those, I'd rather buy the best.
As wbfan said: Different strokes for different folks. I'm not committing to only finding these big companies; but, if one comes along and pulls me in, I want to make an appropriately sized bet.
Valuations: The EDGAR database has filings back to 1994, which will usually then give you financials as far back as 1992 or 1993. When I do the Market Cap vs. Intrinsic Value, I try to calculate intrinsic value as though I were an investor in that year. So, for my 2000 intrinsic value calculation, I don't use 2001-2007 numbers. Instead, I use what I think I would have estimated at that time, the same way we have to predict the future today.
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Joe Ponzio
Oct 25th, 2008
Joe on twitter
Ponzio Capital
Today's stock market is offering all three. So long as the neighborhoods are great, I'd rather buy the 75-unit buildings. Once those move out of my price range, I'll start looking at 15-unit buildings again.
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Alex MacKinnon
Oct 25th, 2008
15 comments
I do understand that DCF uses future cash flows, but what i don't understand is where you find the discount rate to discount the cash back to find the PV of cash flows.
The Fwallstreet sreadsheet generally takes the FCF or CROIC median growth for the PAST 10 years, in order to project the FUTURE years of cash.
So I assume that when calculating the 1997 'intrinsic value' figure, the investor should use the 'real' rate of return (that we see by comparing one years financials to the next) to determine the rate of return.
Ok, I admit, i just answered my own question.
Thanks for the help !
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Rene
Oct 25th, 2008
80 comments
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wbfan
Oct 25th, 2008
Which would come back in favor first? A big company or a small one?
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Rene
Oct 25th, 2008
80 comments
I think that what we are learning here is that even within this philosophically cohesive group, there is plenty of room for differentiation within the same basic approach. A lot of it has to do with how far from retirement you are, what your family obligations are, what your investment goal is, etc., etc., etc. I would never advise anyone on what stocks to buy, the ones I like fit me and only me or someone in a very similar circumstance.
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Mark
Oct 26th, 2008
5 comments
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Mark
Oct 26th, 2008
5 comments
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Darren
Oct 26th, 2008
As for 3M, I looked at them decided to pass based on past performance. I hope for Joe's sake I am wrong he makes a mint on it.
I would like others to expand on these small companies they are looking at and the story behind them, if they can share. I rarely if ever look at such companies, as I am ore of a safe and steady kind of investor, but I would be interested in hearing/learning about the "other" side of the investing world....
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Mark
Oct 26th, 2008
14 comments
I think Joe is right. It makes sense to back the best horses offering the best odds.
cheers
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Alex
Oct 26th, 2008
15 comments
Cash returned on invested capital - 12.3% median 98-07
FCF growth at 32.5% median 98-07
If FCF slows to just a 1/3 of what it has been for the last 10 years, the discounted cash flows valuation should be in the ballpark of 558,083,000,000. (cash growth rates of 10%, 5%, both 10 yrs, and a discount rate of 15%)
If FCF continues to grow as it did for the past 10 years, it could be estimated as worth 1.9 trillion, using cash growth rates of 32.5%, and 5% both for 10yrs, and discount rate of 15%. This gives per share fair value of around $340.
With the total valuation at 558 billion, per share value is around $100. With a price at 69, its selling at around 2/3 of full value, and this is if growth SLOWS by 2/3rds.
Does anybody tend to disagree with this valuation?, I'm open to constructive criticism as I am currently a student, and still attempting to grasp the big picture.
Thanks all!
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Eric
Oct 27th, 2008
You said: "I won't be "way wrong" like I was with AEO"
Could you please share your thoughts on why your opinion of the business and the valuation of the future perspectives of AEO changed?
I know that AEO's price is down roughly 60% from when you valuated and put it into the portfolio. But have you really been wrong on the future perspectives of AEO? Did something dramatically change in the business? Did the future really became cloudier?
In your post "Where Are We With AEO?" (about 2 month ago) you said "I have to say that, in my opinion, management is handling this downturn well...if not brilliantly" and you had good arguments for this. What did change in the past two month or which deeper insights into the company or the company's business did you get?
Why aren't you applying Phil Fisher's 3-year-rule to this stock?
Many questions, but I anyhow got the impression that the currently generally negative situation is also starting to have an effect on your decisions.
I will keep on following your advise "Do As I Say, Not As I Do" (May 29) and can only give you the advise to re-read your "Where Are We With AEO?"-article.
Cheers,
Eric
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Gopi
Oct 27th, 2008
I am planning to stick with Phil's 3 year rule & studying the business progress. After all Its 99% art as you mentioned :-)..
Gopi
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darren
Oct 27th, 2008
I am also a newbie at this, but I did the almost exact same thing. I figured a growth in free cash flow of 10% for the next ten years and then 5% after that. As you pointed out, thats 1/3 of the growth rate that they experienced in the last ten years.
I got a fair value (15% DCF) of about $103 per share . I like to use a 30% Margin of Safety on that, bringing me to a purchase price of about $72. Unfortunately, I also have a currency issue, as the Cdn dollar is what I earn and, for the short term, it's down big time against the US dollar. I figure thats a short term thing and we'll be back closer to par once the comoodity issues work themsleves out. So I have to work in some currency valuations also, to cover my butt when the Cdn dollar shoots back up and I am stuck with shares in US currency..
Of course, that will be a mute point when the Cdn dollar gets stronger than the US dollar and we come down and buy your fine country at a discount. ( that assumes the chinese don't beat us to it) Hope y'all like pancakes and maple syrup!! *S* If not, hope y'all like dim sum.... :)
So, now..what am I doing "wrong" here. This seems like a no-brainer, as they say in the vernacular. It can't be this easy..I must be missing something here... I reduced growth by two thirds and took another 30% off that and still I can buy for less than I calculated. Are things that out of wack???
A request for someone smarter than me (not difficult) to straighten me out on this one.
Darren
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Amit D.
Oct 27th, 2008
We will have to see how this plays out in 3-10 years time, 14$ purchase may be solid... too bad Joe unloaded this one IMO too soon.
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Joe Ponzio
Oct 27th, 2008
Joe on twitter
Ponzio Capital
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Rene
Oct 27th, 2008
80 comments
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phil
Oct 29th, 2008
6 comments
As for KO, the old goat has gotten in everyone's head w/ this one. KO is yesterday's news. The OG did so well with it because he bought before the bull market went crazy and management did a massive restructuring of a bloated enterprise. Those days are long gone. The Chinese don't even like it. One simple fact. When I was a kid, we rode our bikes to the local convenience store after finishing up a baseball game or whatever and everyone of us kids bought a Coke or Pepsi. When was the last time you saw a kid drinking a coke? Case closed!
Conclusion: Should have stuck with AAPL rather than over thinking the whole thing.
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Mark
Oct 30th, 2008
5 comments
"Beverage Digest reported that the total sales volume of soft drinks in the United States fell 0.6 percent in 2006, following a 0.2 percent decline in 2005. The industry sold 10.16 billion cases of soft drinks in 2006, down from 10.22 billion in 2005(reuters.com)."The carbonated soft drink industry has moved from roughly 3 percent growth in the 1990s to modest declines in the last two years," Beverage Digest reported, saying the estimate included energy drinks, a very fast-growing segment."
Someone mentioned just buying the market vs one of these mega giants. You know I was thinking about that and it makes sense. When KO, MMM get a valuation they more deserve the market will have rebounded. So, you could buy an ultra ETF of the S&P (SSO) that goes up 50% when the market goes up 25%. These giant companies aren't going to grow earnings fast enough to get the same performance you can get in this ETF and you get way, way less externalities and uncertainty. If the market crashes or is flat for 2 yrs will KO MMM be much higher. I doubt it.
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Your Name
Feb 9th, 2010