Ask and you shall receive. My web designer got back to me regarding some ideas that have been posted here for forums, discussion boards, etc. He also gave me a price and, well, ouch.

Here's where we are at.

We discussed adding a message board/forum where visitors can discuss opportunities in both long-term holdings and workout situations. I was adamant about a few things:

I don't want it to be jammed with spam, arguments, or the traditional "How do I buy stocks" banter;
We need to have a moderation system where seasoned commenters/posters do not need to have stuff approved by me;
It has to be custom — no cookie cutter template;
It has to be scalable so that we can add features later;
Users must be able to subscribe to individual threads and entire discussions;
It has to be user-friendly.

(I'll drop the price bomb in a minute.)

To accomplish all of this, the site needs to be redesigned somewhat. No major fundamental changes, but there has to be a usability factor beyond a blog and comments. With 110+ posts and 1,400+ comments, a lot of great discussion is getting lost and that has to be remedied.

I also brought up the issue of allowing people to subscribe via e-mail and having RSS feeds for comments on posts or for all comments. As you can imagine, I had no idea how complicated it was to set up a "community" website — I thought I was just going to blog.

The price...$3,200.

Here's my take on it: I think the above features are a nice addition to the site and will help all of us (myself included) grow, both intellectually and financially. I don't mind coughing up the dough, but I can think of more profitable places to put three grand.

Here's my proposal to you — my friends and partners: If I go through with this, will you suffer through some ads, assuming they don't detract too much from the structure or content? After all, what kind of business man or investor would I be if I just blindly plowed cash into a website with no chance of recouping that cost?

I'll let the group decide. More features and some ads? Or, status quo? And if we go with ads and an update, what other features should we consider?

I'll decide by tomorrow night and Friday's post will be the decision/results and a look at the PENN workout.

Previous: Sold My RTSX; Workout Timeline (Feb 11, 2008)
Next: Penn National Gaming — Workout or Worthless? (Feb 15, 2008)

Filed under Random Thought	Print this article
Comment on this [ 43 ]	By: Joe Ponzio

comments

I think that some ads would be fine to include on the site. For all of the benefit that the site provides in all of its capacities, a few ads wouldn't be of very much harm.

by Mike on February 13, 2008 at 10:25 PM

Just don't make the ads annoying and abusive of the current flow of your writing and I am all for it. It is a pet peeve of mine when bloggers have adds before their articles or in the middle. On the sides it totally fine.

by Andy on February 13, 2008 at 10:29 PM

Joe, Your blog is one of several value investing blogs that I check daily. Most of them have advertising these days. I don't like the clutter, but hey, we all gotta make a living, and if advertising is the way to do it, then far be it from me to say no go. I have donated to some sites when asked, just as I donate to NPR. Payment for services rendered. But a subscription model is messy to implement and offputting to many people, and donations are far to unpredictable a source of funds. Before you jump, though, I'd make sure that advertising is actually going to cover your nut. From tech podcasts I listen to I get the impression that web advertising as the way to wealth for the blogger or podcaster is not all that remunerative.

Besides, sometimes I actually find an ad that's useful! How 'bout that.

by pennypincher on February 13, 2008 at 10:37 PM

Wow. $3200 is a lot so why not set up a paypal link for donations? I have gotten a lot of great advice so I don't mind chipping in some money.

Really though, I like the format of this website how it is. If you get a forum then there is no way that it won't be littered with spam, arguments, or the traditional "How do I buy stocks" banter. As more and more people come along, how are you going to stop this. I haven't found a forum that is clean so I don't expect this one to be this way either over time.

Keep this place how it is. No forum.

by Dom on February 13, 2008 at 11:49 PM

Yah, just keep them reasonable please. Also, feel free to add a donation button.. just for when people are feeling generous.

by Night on February 14, 2008 at 12:01 AM

Go for it, I am eagerly looking forward to this watering hole of sharp mind. Joe, you are doing a fantastic job, kudos on all this effort, time and money. We really appreciate it !

Thanks!
Amit

by Amit on February 14, 2008 at 1:11 AM

Joe,

I am a huge fan of the site, and ads really would not bother me at all. Keep them un-obtrusive, somewhere off to the side, and don't put too much. I think all readers would agree that enhanced content would be worth the ad placement.

by Jeff on February 14, 2008 at 1:13 AM

loading your site up with ads is no problem for me personally. I'm just happy the content is there!

by Nelson on February 14, 2008 at 1:54 AM

Hi Joe

Your literature has always been great and this website is like a small haven of sanity in an otherwise uniformed world of investing.

Anything that makes the flow here easier, even tolerating ads, would be most welcome by myself at least (and I'm sure many others).

All the best
Jordi

by Jordi Posthumus on February 14, 2008 at 6:12 AM

As long as ads are on the side and unobtrusive for readbility purposes, i see no reason why you shouldn't explore the idea. Besides, like the other comment, we might even find some ads that are useful.

by Ram Krishnamurthy on February 14, 2008 at 6:38 AM

I'm scared that the forum format will destroy the site and make like all the other ones. Reasonable advertising is fine but I suggest you to get another quotation - Buffet wouldn't pay $3,200. Content matters, forget about the rest.

by Bob on February 14, 2008 at 7:41 AM

Yours is easily one of the best investing sites out there, blogging or mainstream. Don't mess with a good thing. Let it be....

by Pete Koch on February 14, 2008 at 7:56 AM

I'm curious about this requirement: It has to be custom %u2014 no cookie cutter template.

Modern threaded discussion software can be pretty complex...do you really want to tackle something that big? For what benefit?

by Dan on February 14, 2008 at 8:09 AM

I'd rather be a paid subscriber / donator than think about what advertisements might do to the site. A thousand donation of $32 and you're ahead. I have paid more for magazines that I never read. And I do read this site, every word. But it's your site, we come for the content and not the art, and in this case, the lack of art is beautiful.

by Stephen on February 14, 2008 at 8:30 AM

I like the way things are right now but I understand I am riding free.
Could you go the donation route and see how close you come to $3,200? If that fails, try the ad thing.
My big question might be "How hard is it to change a bad decision?" If the site were diminished by ads, could we ever go back to where we are now??
I'll still show up everyday, whatever you decide.

by Lou on February 14, 2008 at 8:41 AM

Anything that makes it simple for you Joe is fine with me. Ads, donations, subscription fees, etc. I have gained so much already for free. So far your blog has attracted a great group of courtious and helpful contributors. I think we have a great base here to build a community around.

Also, I would be willing to help out if there is another way for me to contribute.

by MikeR on February 14, 2008 at 9:06 AM

Why reinvent the wheel? You can use something like PPHBB (phpbb.com) as the forum engine, and then create a customized template that fits into your site look and feel. Take a look at this web site as an example...

http://www.dd-wrt.com/phpBB2/

They have a blog much like you do, but they customized a template for PHPBB. There shouldn't be any need to change the design of your current site...

by Tim J on February 14, 2008 at 9:17 AM

Ads are fine with me. I think a donation option is a good idea as well. The content you have on this site is very valuable and ads won't bother me as long as the content is still there. Thanks for asking for all of our opinions!

by Howard on February 14, 2008 at 9:18 AM

Before spending all that money, and before making any major changes, why don't you try making one blog entry that is empty, and titled "forum". And all the comments on that blog will be the forum. Over the next few weeks, if Joe or others think that its gotten too sloppy, then Joe can take it down and go ahead with the professional forum with advertisements.

I realize that people do not want to have unproductive comments on the forum, but people could place unproductive comments on each of Joe's blog posts, and that does not seem to happen very often.

Joe, I think you should try the simple, free method first. It wont involve major changes and it should be easy to fix if it ends up being counter-productive. If that does not work, than by all means you should go ahead with the advertisements...

by GG on February 14, 2008 at 9:37 AM

As usual, thanks for your posts, requests for recommendations, and your egalitarian way of operating your site.

I second Tim J's recommendation. Also, you may want to look into haloscan for commenting purposes. There are some superior features to halsoscan (although they require a free add-on) - particularly as your site becomes more popular (e.g. each reader can decide individually if they want to block certain spammers, trolls, etc...The best part is that each reader's decision only impacts their own experience - thus saving much of the subjective policing work that you would have to do). Check out Calculated Risk's comments for an example of haloscan.

While Buffett said, "you get the shareholders you deserve", I'm not so sure that blogs always get the commenters they deserve (although so far, so good! :) the commenters on this site have been a wonderful asset).

Looking forward to PENN!

by Noah on February 14, 2008 at 10:56 AM

My thoughts:

1) $3,200 is a pretty good price for the kind of forum/discussion board you talked about...and judging from the current design of the site, your web designer knows exactly what he's doing and is very talented.

2) Like what some others said, ads might not bring in the sort of revenue you're looking for. I would recommend a donation link (maybe through PayPal?).

3) What I really hoping for is a post about your favorite investing/business books. Feel free to set-up an affiliate account with Amazon when linking to these books, because I'd be glad to use your link when I purchase them. I know some bloggers who say this can bring in even more money than ads.

At any rate, I really enjoy your posts and will keep coming back to the site regardless of what you decide. Keep up the good work!

by Max on February 14, 2008 at 11:12 AM

I like the affiliate idea too. I buy atleast 3-4 investing books a year. Hey, when your book is available you could even make a double-proft from people who read your blog, haha!

I hope everyone has a good Valentine's day, by the way. I'm recently heartbroken but atleast I have a singles-only party to go to (oh the joys of youth.. parties on weekdays).

by Night on February 14, 2008 at 11:26 AM

There are lots of good suggestions here. We all have reason to worry about irrelevant comments and discussion. After all, we don't want this to become another gurufocus type free-for-all. I for one am in favor of donating money toward the cost of development. It would be an honor, in fact. On the flip side, it would take you forever to recoup your $3200 initial investment through ads. I wouldn't do it. There are many blogs that have a much larger audience that don't pull in much more than $100/month.

I support whatever your decision you decide to go with. The value I've gotten from coming here is incalculable. A donation to something potentially more valuable is a no-brainer. Thanks for everything so far.

Looking forward to many more insightful and informative posts in the future.

by Nick on February 14, 2008 at 12:21 PM

once again, great website. I recommend proceeding with caution on any modifications to the website. By allowing folks to just post comments, I think chaos will ensue. by being a newer website (compared to motley fool), you have a much smaller base of viewers. As you continue with your excellent posts, you will expand your recognition, and this might become a full time job trying to regulate the comments posted. As you must have seen in previous comments from members, I can think of one in particular, thinks can get personal. It is great that you are trying to impart the wisdom of your experiences, but unless you are confident that those you choose to comment on your website share you beliefs about the market, you will probably be spending an inordinate amount of time trying to quiet the noise that will most certainly result from less knowledgeable, and more importantly less rational folks who will post on this website. Fwallstreet is about removing the noise and being objective( I think). I think it sounds great that you could develop a larger viewership, but you can't be certain that the members are going to 'take' to your advice. Just look at motley fool, for instance, they started out with their own formula, but had to allow for more discussion groups as time went by. I can't see how this would be any different. I think your website is fine the way it is. A rational unemotional investor waits for his pitch, doesn't get caught up with the crowd and makes his or her move on their time. You website doesn't have a posting everyday, for the very same reason. By opening up, you will undoubtably be allowing the noise to interfere. Pardon to all those who do comment on a regular basis, but I am referring to those who might post in the future. Sorry for the long post.

by john m on February 14, 2008 at 1:09 PM

Joe...your site is wonderful. What makes it wonderful is the lack of clutter and very good advice from you and fans of your site. If the $3200 is a one time cost, I would be glad to pay 5-10% of that cost. If others have profited as I have from your advice, I would hope they would also be willing. A full subscription site is my ultmimate preference as it keeps the junk down to a minimum and encourages serious investors to contribute to the knowledgebase.

Having a group of serious investors to help evaluate all the 'Workouts' would be a real boon. I'm very sure there are many of us duplicating the research. If we could pare it down to a few good choices...well that we be well worth a lot of $ to each of us.

Thanks for everything Joe.

Jerry

by Jerry Gunn on February 14, 2008 at 1:29 PM

Go ahead with the ads as long as the qualitiy remains I ll keep coming back.

could pfgc be one of your next workout?

Thanks once more for a great blog.

by raph on February 14, 2008 at 2:13 PM

Joe great blog!!! I have been enjoying your writings since last summer! Thanks for all the knowledge you have shared.

As far as the ads go...

It is very refreshing coming to your site and not seeing a single ad. I feel a combination of a paypal donation button and amazon book links may be the way to go.

It seems that enough people would be willing to make a donation to keep this great site in its current state.

As max and night said I also buy books off of Amazon and would have no problem clicking through your site to buy books in the future

Thanks again for everything!!!

jeff

by jeffsafety on February 14, 2008 at 2:42 PM

I like it the way it is, but do what is best for you. We will just have to follow you lead. Don't set it up like M Fool!!!

Thanks for all the hard work. later

by Buddy on February 14, 2008 at 3:34 PM

I support the subscription model assuming there is enough free material to get new people interested. Ads don't bother me either, as long as it's subtle and seperated from the content.

by Dan on February 14, 2008 at 4:08 PM

Check out vbulletin. It is the nicest forum software ever created and i think it sells for like 150 dollars and a custom theme integrated into the site could be around 500. I think your connection is milking the prices. Also can you talk about sears corp. Mohnish pabrai recently acquired around 500,000 shares.

by josh on February 14, 2008 at 4:35 PM

No Ads please. I say status quo.

thanks

by Jason on February 14, 2008 at 11:01 PM

Joe

You have a great site as it stands in my opinion. My fear is that the quality of the discussion is going to deteriorate and for that reason I would rather you leave things the way they are.

by Dean on February 15, 2008 at 1:05 AM

donation link, affiliate account with Amazon - yes please
ads - i'd rather you didn't, but it's not gonna stop me from reading

by mathieu on February 15, 2008 at 2:33 AM

Joe,

Honestly, I wasn't sure why you had not incorporated ads already. If and when I set up my own sites for my own work I will have ads incorporated in. They won't be obtrusive, but they will earn cash while not detracting visitors with subscription fees. And earning cash is what this is all about right?

ME

by ME Williams on February 15, 2008 at 6:59 AM

Donations work very well on another forum I'm involved with - Fred's TDI forums (tdiclub.com). Many times members will create something of useful (instructional DVDs, etc), charge $20, and donate proceeds to the club. Oh yeah - direct donations also work...people generally are generous if they like the community and value they get out of it.

by Dan on February 15, 2008 at 7:04 AM

Honestly I would like you to keep it the way it is (simple, quality contents)..Donations are better options than annoying ads if you really want to pursue that idea.

by Gopinath on February 15, 2008 at 10:53 AM

When a guy providing a service to me FOR FREE asks me if he can monetize it somewhat FOR MY FURTHER BENEFIT, I think I can trust him to not bog me down too much with ads, so it sounds fine to me. However, as an alternative (assuming the rest of peanut gallery is against the idea) you can always set up a Yahoo group for free.

by BP on February 15, 2008 at 3:09 PM

hey joe, long time avid reader here.

i do this web stuff for a living, been doing it for 10 years.
assuming the guy/gal you are talking to is competent, $3200 to do what you want is a screaming deal. i would charge you 2 or 3 times that.

if he knows what he is doing (and i assume he does), he will actually get the software for free (open source). you are paying for his/her time to set-up, configure, and tweak it.

$50/hr, for someone who is quality, is a fair hourly rate. i would expect him/her to spend 50-100 hours in the first month or so doing all the above, plus troubleshooting stuff and hand holding.

on a different but somewhat related note:

my $.02, take it or leave it. i don't care for the new layout. your old layout was B-E-A-U-T-I-F-U-L. it was very visually appealing, and very easy to read. from a web design perspective, it was an A . i cant adequately verbalize how bitchin your old layout was. the only down side to the old layout was navigation (i suspect thats what motivated the layout change), but i became very accustomed to using the site map to read all the various posts. now your site looks like every other blog out there.

keep up the good work joe, love your writing, and thanks for sharing your knowledge.

by tomas on February 15, 2008 at 8:50 PM

Thanks for the feedback all. As tomas pointed out, the old navigation was bad and a lot of older posts were being lost entirely.

I did opt for an "Amazon" ad rather than the annoying (and utterly useless) banners. The way I see it, If I can't add any value (e.g., recommending books), then we should all go somewhere else! (I saw no value in "$0 STOCK TRADES FROM ZECCO!" and will remove it from the home page as soon as I find something of value.)

by Joe Ponzio on February 19, 2008 at 1:30 PM

Ads would be fine, I don't see why anyone should object. Thanks for all your posts and insight, I enjoy learning from them.

It seems like you just need to add a forum. What software do you use for your current blog?

by Scott on February 20, 2008 at 4:24 PM

Scott,

The blog is custom. I didn't like anything I saw at blogger or wordpress (I tried them). They were easy to use, but didn't offer the customization the designer and I wanted.

by Joe Ponzio on February 21, 2008 at 9:21 AM

Hi Joe,
You can use adsense (www.google.com/adsense) and block out whichever advertisers that aren't aligned with fwallstreet method.

You get paid based on clicks not based on actual merchandise sold. Though I'd like to see if the books from amazon converts for you.

by Khoa on February 27, 2008 at 3:37 PM

I think that this is about it on ads. Any books discussed will be Amazon links, but that is about it.

My biggest concern is adding value for visitors, not just having ads people might accidently click on. If I lose money in the end, so be it. I think we're having a lot of fun here. (I didn't make any money at after-work cocktails yesterday either, but I had a great time!)

by Joe Ponzio on March 1, 2008 at 10:52 AM

The Workout Forum; Site Changes

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