When asked how to value financial institutions, I’ve always taken the cop out plea: They’re outside my sphere of competence. What makes that statement extremely interesting is that I own and operate one and I still can’t value them!
Robert posted one of the finest, most eloquent, and thoroughly researched answers to the question of why it is so difficult to value financial services companies.
Hi All,
Can someone please advise of an appropriate method for calculating the IV for financial services companies? From what i have read, i believe that it needs to be approached slightly differently.
In particular we have some strong performing banks (both traditional and investment) in Australia and i would like do the numbers to see how they stack up.
Cheers
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I am going to reprint Robert’s response here, or you can view the comment string for yourself – starting here.
Robert’s Response
Dissatisfied with my earlier response to Marc concerning evaluation of financial firms, I performed some research. While dated, there was nothing of value in any of the finance, accounting, and investment texts from graduate business school – beyond noting the necessity of banks to secure a positive spread between investment returns and payouts to customers, the need for accurately predicting the economy’s movement and degree in order to choose between short-term and longer-term investments, and the necessity of factoring withdrawals.
Next, I consulted Philip Fisher’s Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits, since Buffett was a friend and admirer of Fisher – claiming the he was 25 percent Fisher and 75 percent Graham. There was nothing on point that I found in Fisher’s book.
As for Graham, Security Analysis (first published in 1934) offers support for my previous message. In my copy (ISBN: 0-07-024496-0, McGraw-Hill), Graham writes:
It may be logically contended that since dealing in securities is an integral part of the investment-trust business, the results from sales and even the changes in portfolio values should be regarded as ordinary rather than extraordinary elements in the year’s report. Certainly a study confined to the interest and dividend receipts less expenses would prove of negligible value. If any useful results can be expected from an analysis of investment-trust exhibits, such analysis must clearly be based on the three items: investment income, profits or losses on the sale of securities, and changes in market values. But the reader must bear in mind the basic fact that security analysis, however intelligently conducted, cannot be more dependable than the conditions with which it deals. No study of investment-trust reports during the pyrotechnic years of 1928 to 1933 could possibly shed light upon the future results to be expected from these enterprises. The value of such a study would have to be confined to certain comparisons between one company and another. Even here it would be difficult to distinguish confidently between superior management and luckier guesses on the market. (Page 358, emphasis in the original.)
Graham next extends this uncertainty to other financial firms, with the statement,
The same problem is involved in analyzing the results shown by insurance companies and by banks. (Ibid.)
On the next page, Graham extends the negative assessment to the issue of increased volatility attributable to this lack of clarity / granularity inherent in financial firms.
The fact that the operations of financial institutions generally – such as investment trusts, banks, and insurance companies – must necessarily reflect changes in security values, makes their shares a dangerous medium for widespread public dealings. Since in these enterprises an increase in security values may be held to be part of the year’s profits, there is an inevitable tendency to regard the gains made in good times as part of the “earning power,” and to value the shares accordingly. This results of course in an absurd overvaluation, to be followed by collapse and a correspondingly excessive depreciation. Such violent fluctuations are particularly harmful in the case of financial institutions because they may affect public confidence. It is true also that rampant speculation (called “investment”) in bank and insurance-company stocks leads to the ill-advised launching of new enterprises, to the unwise expansion of old ones, and to a general relaxation of established standards of conservatism and even to probity.” (Ibid, pg. 359.)
[Note: The relaxation of regulations concerning investments and investment reporting (under the current US administration) strikes me as interesting, in light of this last line. Of course, sub-prime mortgage loans was not a banking or Glass-Steigall problem but, rather, largely occurred outside of regulated banking.]
In Security Analysis Graham ultimately draws the following conclusion on the subject:
The securities analyst, in discharging his function of investment counselor, should do his best to discourage the purchase of stocks of banking and insurance institutions by the ordinary small investor.” (Ibid.)
Security Analysis was the first of two oft-quoted texts by Graham, and it was the first published. The second, The Intelligent Investor
was first published in 1950 and revised four times – with the last revision in 1973. It was recently re-published by Collins (ISBN-10: 0-06-055566-1 & ISBN-13: 978-0-06-055533-5), with preface by Buffett and commentary by Jason Zweig. Where Security Analysis
expresses evident bias informed by the then-recent market crash in the late 1920s, The Intelligent Investor
is marginally more accommodating, due to the added safety of increased regulation, but he offers no specifics on how to value such institutions. On page 360, Graham writes:
A considerable variety of concerns may be ranged under the rubric of “financial companies.” These would include banks, insurance companies, savings and loan associations, credit and small-loan companies, mortgage companies, and “investment companies” (e.g., mutual funds). It is characteristic of all these enterprises that they have a relatively small part of their assets in inventories – but on the other hand most categories have short-term obligations well in excess of their stock capital. The question of financial soundness is, therefore, more relevant here than in the case of the typical manufacturing or commercial enterprise. This, in turn, has given rise to various forms of regulation and supervision, with the design and general result of assuring against unsound financial practices.
The next paragraph compares equity appreciation results for financial companies with other firms between 1940 and 1970, and he concludes that financials have achieved comparative results. This is the middle paragraph of just three devoted to this topic, and he concludes by writing:
We have no very helpful remarks to offer in this broad area of investment – other than to counsel that the same arithmetical standards for price in relation to earnings and book value be applied to the choice of companies in these groups as we have suggested for industrial and public-utility investments.
This last statement is important because, in his earlier writings, he notes the difficulties in relying on reported investment earnings by financial firms and, separately, he notes the difficulties associated with applying book value to investment holdings. Should you, for example, value them at your initial purchase price, the price in the market when publishing the annual statement, the aggregation of book values for each internal investment by the firm, or some other method (perhaps including depreciation, inflation, estimated breakup value, etc). Each has its problems, as Buffett has repeatedly noted in his letters to BH investors – recognizing that a significant component of this holding company is an investment house, and the largest categorical component is insurance and re-insurance.
Surely, however, there have been advances since Graham described these difficulties in the early 1970’s and when I graduated business school in the early 1990’s. Well, consulting firm McKinsey & Company and then-current and -former partners Tom Copeland, Tim Koller, and Jack Murrin authored Valuation: Measuring and Managing the Value of Companies, Third Edition (ISBN: 0-471-36190-9 cloth, 0-471-36191-7 paper, 0-471-39748-2 cloth with CD.) This excellent text devotes just two chapters to valuing financial firms (banks are covered in chapter 22 and insurance firms are addressed in chapter 23, with no chapter devoted to investment houses).
Copeland, et al, undertake bank valuation by converting the financials to free cash flow to bank shareholders with the following adjustments:
Income Statement:
Interest Income
+ Fee Income
- Interest Expense
- Provision for Credit Losses
+ Non-Interest Revenue
- Non-Interest Expense
+ FX Income
– Taxes
= Net Income
+ Extraordinary Items
+ Depreciation
= Cash from Operations
Balance Sheet Sources
Gross Loans Due
– Provisions and Unearned Income
= Net Loans Paid
+ Increase in Deposits
+ Increase in External Debt
+ Increase in Other Liabilities
+ Increase in Accounts Payable
= Sources
Balance Sheet Uses
New Loans
+ Increase in Securities Held
+ Increase in Accounts Receivable
+ Increase in Net Tangible Assets
+ Increase in Other Assets
- Decrease in Deposits
– Decrease in External Debt
= Uses
Free Cash Flow to Bank Shareholders = Cash From Operations + Sources – Uses
This level of granularity is often unavailable to non-insiders or through secondary sources such as Yahoo and Morningstar. Consequently, this free cash flow conversion is the initial step commend by the authors for internal analysis, and, to the extent available, for outsider analysis. It would, therefore, be necessary to do this based on the SEC filings for the past 5 years to determine trends and targeted portfolio levels by loan and investment class.
Insiders are advised to calculate and apply the spreads earned on balances, since income is derived from interest returns on investing-member funds minus the interest paid back. This, of course, varies depending on current interest rates (borrowing longer-term and paying shorter-term rates when favorable, for example). There is, however, a gains and losses mismatch due to the necessity of rolling over shorter-term instruments more frequently than their longer-term counterparts. Consequently, the bank is constantly wagering on the direction and degree of interest rate changes in the out years. Imagine, for example, their difficulty predicting the latest 75-basis point decrease in US rates as the Federal Reserve sought to combat the liquidity crisis – a reversal to expected increases designed to address projected growth in inflation. In any event, the insider must calculate and apply corrections to the mismatch in order to project cash flows in future years. The authors advise against using perpetuity calculations to by-pass this step. In their example (using prior data for Citi), a 23 percent ROE under a perpetuity model becomes a 0.5 ROE by year 3 if adjusting for the mismatch.
Here is how they summarize the “mismatch” challenges:
The key to handling the problem of mismatch gains or losses is to build a good forecast that takes into account:
- The way spreads are forecasted to change with the changing interest rate environments.
- The inflow of funds from loans being paid off and the outflow of funds at new rates as new loans are made.
- The substitution between interest-bearing and non-interest-bearing deposits as interest-rate environments change.
- The portion of mismatch profits that is sustainable because forward rates tend to be higher than their corresponding realized spot rates.
It is not easy to build all of these variables into a forecast. Even if you decide not to do so, it helps to understand the illusion of mismatch profits. (Page 434).
As for outsider valuations, the authors assert:
Determining the quality of loans is the most difficult problem for an outsider’s valuation, and little information is available to help solve it. Consider loans to emerging market countries or commercial real estate. Althought they are sometimes sold in secondary markets for 50 cents on the dollar, this kind of markdown must be viewed with healthy cynicism. The loans that banks keep are probably worth more than those they choose to sell in the secondary market.
The market value of the loan portfolio evolves with changes in interest rates and in the creditworthiness of debt in the bank’s loans portfolio. It is possible to find out what percentage of the portfolio is represented by emerging market, leveraged buyout, or commercial real estate lending. These can then be marked to market (at least approximately) as market conditions change. (Ibid.)
Next they turn to the question of estimating the difference between possible, potential, and likely dividends paid to the various classes of investors and finally recommend creation of 10-year pro forma’s that adjust each line-item based on interest rate and inflation expectations, leading to the discounted cash flow analysis. As with the spread analysis, it is necessary to perform this for each class of loan undertaken by the institution.
The authors go into other significant consideration, such as:
- The stability of loan values due to FDIC coverage for loan loss,
- The differences between wholesale and retail banking,
- Inter-bank and extra-bank loans,
- Capital structure,
- The cost of equity,
- Treasury borrowings,
- Risk management, and
What they describe as “the shared-cost problem,” which is the normal issue of how to allocate expenses by branch, service line, and headquarters (which is more of an internal issue, that is largely ignored when valuing non-financial firms).
I will not provide the same treatment for the valuing of insurance companies, but the authors indicate that this is similarly complex:
In Insurance companies, operations and financing are intertwined, as they are in banks. As a result, the equity, rather than enterprise, discounted cash flow approach must be employed to value insurance companies. In addition, insurance companies have unique operating characteristics that warrant further discussion. (Page 449.)
Investment houses, as previously mentioned, are not addressed in this text, but the same issues apply. Investment houses have similar liquidity flow and redemption concerns, spead issues, portfolio allocation challenges (especially for margin accounts and in cases where they make the market – some do, others don’t). Marc’s question, blessedly, was limited to banks, and I’ve marginally extended this to insurance since banks are a common source of home and car insurance.
My apologies for the long-winded response, but Marc asked an intelligent and difficult question – one that has been raised by others and addressed with marginally less detail by Joe. Given his greater experience, I hope he will correct any inadvertent errors I may have made – with the same request extended to the CPAs who frequent this blog. While I am a management professor, finance is not an area of professional focus. You are, therefore, invited to consider the source and apply the appropriate credibility discount to all that I’ve written.
Robert
My Response
Thanks Robert. That was awesome! In short, they’re still outside my sphere of competence!
Filed under: How to Value a Business
If one wants to own a bank stock then maybe a way to do it is to acquire a stock that Buffet recently purchased. For example, BAC can be bought at a price under the Buffet acquisition price. I guess what I am saying is – if you trust his valuation methods and can pick up the same stock at or less than his price, then that could be a good way to invest in a banking stock.
That has inherent risk too. Eddie Lambert, a well known value investor made a big addition to his Citigroup holding in the high 40s. So, does that mean the margin of safety for Citigroup is better now that it tanked, or does it mean that even the good value guys can get it wrong too?
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As a full time insurance professional engaged in the evaluation of big inforce segments of life insurance contracts I can only concur.
Despite having the luxury of an army of number crunching minions and all my days to focus on valuing this type of insurance business, I have never come across a block that doesn’t sit squarely in the too hard pile !
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Also, for those looking for qualitative/quantititive information on banks, the FDIC website has a wealth of inforamtion related to loan portfolios, and other various ratios of any bank, public or private, which would help at least partly assess the quality of the companies assets.
Robert, great post!
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Wow!
Sphere of confidence. I can’t say I’d put the above response (although well done) inside of mine either. Financial firms rest on shaky ground, and to make a significant investment in one requires alot of knowledge about, and trust in, the management. I think that is absolutely key if you are a focus investor. There very little in the way of hard assets- just a sliver of equity under a mountain of debt. Many firms prosper, but I feel that picking the winners a difficult task. Buffett can. I don’t think a lot of us can.
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Rob – my first post and you go right ahead and roll out the red carpet with a response like that! What can i say? Thanks you so so much for such a thoughtful and complete response.
I had come to the conclusion that it was out of my sphere of competence but wanted to make sure i wasnt missing something. I take a lot of comfort reading others comments to this post and seeing that i was not alone. I will be leaving the financial services sector alone as there are plenty more great businesses on sale out there which are much less ambigious.
Thanks again Rob – your insight is truly invaluable.
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I would also like to echo the thanks to Robert for an amzing post. I also wanted to add some additional analysis on the extent of potential Wall Street write-downs from Nouriel Roubini, a professor at NYU, if anyone has not seen this yet:
http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/224871
http://www.rgemonitor.com/blog/roubini/225427
This issue is really interesting right now, because with all the banks falling there has to be some value out there. The key is identifying it. Unfortunately, the more I read on the subject, the more clear it becomes to me that this is way to hard for me, and maybe for anyone!
Lucky for us that thanks to Joe we don’t need to gamble, we can find the sure things out there!
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Andy, I was thinking the very same thing not long ago. I know first hand, I run apartments in NYC and all our loans are with NYB. About 70% of all rsa (rent stabilized apts) loans in NYC belongs to NYB. Interesting fact: NYB hasn’t lose principle on a loan in 25 years. Alas, its still a bank.
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Munger has said that valuing financial stocks is very hard and not for the typical investor. It’s in the “to hard” category for most.
Buffett is one of the best at valuing financial.
The prudent course? Just biggyback Buffett. Dave above already hinted at this.
So, right now I think anyone could blindly buy BAC or USB.
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Andy, the value approach seeks to identify the intrinsic value of a company and then require a margin of safety as the initial screen — *before* performing further due diligence into the viability and strength of the business. With banks, you can certainly apply discounted cash flows if taking the reported figures at face value — recognizing that the true cash flows often require adjustment for financial firms, as indicated.
Nevertheless, it is at the due diligence stage that problems arise. The strength of a bank (regardless of its exposure to sub-prime) is only as good as its holdings. Where the diligent investor can analyze conglomerates, like GE, by considering its portfolio of products and services individually, this is rarely possible for financial firms. The on-going melt down of financial stocks, while linked to sub-prime, is actually attributable to a lack of clarity — the very complaint voiced by Benjamin Graham in the 1930s AND by Benjamin Bernanke earlier this week.
None of this should suggest that your investment is in jeopardy or ill-considered. It may be a great selection (probably is), but it is beyond my scope of expertise and comfort for all of the reasons proffered above. If you are comfortable valuing banks and the effort falls within your realm of expertise, you have my admiration, envy, and best wishes. For those who lack this level of comfort, the message of the post is simple. “You are in abundant good company.”
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Keep in mind, a financial company can easily value its assets at market, and would be expected to, since the majority of its assets are in the form of derivatives and other financial instruments. This is difficult to assess in and of itself because it’s up to management to ascertain the value of them. According to Buffett, the ideal way to come up with a value is to sell 10% of the portfolio in the open market and see what the true value is. The problem with current CDO’s?? Nobody wants to touch them. So what’s the value?
Also, Buffett may be good a valuing financial firms, but he hasn’t shown it. The only financial house that he’s owned, to my knowledge, was Salomon back in the 80’s, and he even said after he liquidated his position that it was an attractive security (preferred) in an industry that he normallly wouldn’t touch. Plus, he was familiar with most of the executive team, so he felt he could rely on them.
Even Buffett doesn’t touch financial companies. He tends to stick to insurance, which seems to be less far from most people’s “too hard” pile.
Keep it simple. That’s a reiterative statement for a reason.
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Superb post as awlays. Regarding financial firms, an FYI here. Buffet does own Wells Fargo, and has written quite effusive praise about the firm and its CEO in a shareholder letter not that long ago. I once asked Joe, what he thought WFC had versus other banks, given that Buffet didnt put it in his ” too tough” bucket.
Any ideas?
Great stuff. This is one of my favorite sites and thanks for keeping this up Joe.
Jay
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Jay,
Given the difficulties with valuing financial firms (outlined by Graham and Dodd), you would expect that Buffett, either, holds the same view or has hit on a superior method since working for Graham in the 1930s. This second interpretation would make sense, given BH’s insurance holdings and the Wells Fargo investment, but Buffett has readily admitted to error when it comes to super cat insurance exposure related to 9/11 and Katrina, in addition to the Soloman experience described by Nick. Regardless, Wells Fargo is reported to have significant exposure to sub-prime and alt-A loans. There is, certainly, little in the statements of an average financial firm to provide even the most precise investor with prior warning about the quality, risk, or focus of sub-prime, alt-A, derivatives, SIVs, etc.. Besides, even if Buffett believes he has found a superior method for valuing such firms (and has not described it publicly), it still exceeds my comfort zone and goes into the “Too Hard” basket.
This doesn’t mean that I’m not open to being educated by those for whom this isn’t “too hard.” I’d love to know how the average investor can value the benefits and risks associated with derivatives, sub-prime loans, and, of course, the less exotic, but largely hidden, investments commonly made by financial institutions. It seems clear that the rating agencies are not a capable or reliable source for this information, since they were rating many CDOs as AAA until recently. Their excuse is that such investment instruments are new and lack a sufficient history on which to actuarially calculate the risk of default or decline. Buffett is smart, but, by his own admission, he is no smarter than the most competent of Wall Streeters. According to him, his advantage is his fealty to a rather simple philosophy of investing, learned through experience and at the feet of giants, such as Benjamin Graham, David Dodd, John Burr Williams, Philip Fisher, and, more recently, Charlie Munger. It is this relative simplicity that makes his approach available to you and me.
John Holland of the Santa Fe Institute is one of the founding fathers of artificial intelligence (specifically, neural networks, as opposed to genetic algorithms). It is from this that programmatic or rule-based trading evolved. Even if we discount this approach as increasing risk beyond prudent tolerance and believe that AI-based investing truly represents the best approach, it would be too complex for the individual investor and, until recently, beyond the computing power of the home PC. As such, it might be a superior approach but lack any utility for the small investors who frequent Joe’s excellent blog. The same logic may, in fact, be true of valuing financial firms — i.e., possible for the likes of Buffett but not easily accomplished by those “playing at home.” This might explain why he has not described his approach in the chairman’s letters, but that conclusion would be nothing more than supposition on my part.
Joe, this would be interesting question for your friend Mohnish to pose at the next BH stockholder’s meeting.
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Excellent post, and thoughtful commentaries.
I think I have just been spared a lot of futile “homework” trying to get my head around a rational view on banks.
A recent study claims to prove that simply following Berkshire Hathaway`s picks after they are made public would result in a return nearly as good as Berkshire itself:-(http://www.cnbc.com/id/21834492/)
Assuming that this report is not totally flawed, one may, as one post already suggests, just opt to follow Buffet on the Banks issue.
It’s comforting to observe that Berkshire’s financial picks appear to be in free fall (along with the rest) increasing the MOS for lesser mortals day by day. Technical analysis may be the pits, but watching for the free fall to stop (or at least pause) would seem the only rational course of action for anyone wishing to put their nerves to the test.
Either there’s a bottom to the slide, or the entire global economy is rapidly going pear shaped.
The issue of a global melt down is, of course, just as relevant to all other investments in stocks and not just a headache for would be dabblers in Financials!
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I am wondering how do you value the commercial REITs such as Capital Source or iStar? They seem to rely on an “adjusted earnings” figure which as near as I can tell seems to be a free cash flow estimate. Is this an accurate analysis? Would you put these REITs in the too hard category?
Thanks,
Malcolm
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Thank you Robert for your insightful post and thank you Joe for publishing Robert’s post. Although I have been tempted by looking at Moody’s and American Express, I will be adding these type of companies to my “too hard” pile.
Georgia
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