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	<title>Comments on: Stock Buybacks: What That Means For You</title>
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		<title>By: Joe Ponzio</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-1147</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Ponzio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-1147</guid>
		<description>Andy,

I took a look at their annual reports and I see what you mean. I think the confusion is in the language. Many companies list &quot;issued&quot; and &quot;outstanding&quot; on the balance sheet. WMI only shows &quot;issued&quot; and you have a touch of math to do. As it stands, the company has:

&lt;ul&gt;

&lt;li&gt;1,500,000,000 shares authorized (if they need to sell more to the public);&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;li&gt;630,282,461 issued (meaning someone owns them);&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;li&gt;96,598,567 in treasury (meaning the company owns 96 million of the 630 million issued.&lt;/li&gt;

&lt;/ul&gt;

If the company reported the &quot;outstanding&quot; on the balance sheet, you would see 533.7 (~630.3-96.6) million in fiscal year 2006 and 552.3 (~630.3-78.0) million in fiscal year 2005.

In Item 5 of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/823768/000095013407003484/h43426e10vk.htm#109&quot; title=&quot;the company&#039;s 10-k (annual report)&quot; target=&quot;blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the company&#039;s 10-k (annual report)&lt;/a&gt;, they confirm that they repurchased ~31 million shares. Above, we show a reduction of 18.6 million shares. That means the company issued (via options or otherwise) another 12.4 million.

They will adjust the amount for every quarterly and annual report.

As to the second part of your question, a company is not supposed to be able to manipulate its stock price in the way you mentioned. If a company manipulates its news to inflate or depress the price, the SEC and attorney general will have a field day taking the executives to court. That said, I&#039;m sure that the scenario plays out to a certain degree in reality. The old balance-between-what&#039;s-legal-and-what&#039;s-profitable tightrope act that a small number of companies will try.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andy,</p>
<p>I took a look at their annual reports and I see what you mean. I think the confusion is in the language. Many companies list &#8220;issued&#8221; and &#8220;outstanding&#8221; on the balance sheet. WMI only shows &#8220;issued&#8221; and you have a touch of math to do. As it stands, the company has:</p>
<ul>
<li>1,500,000,000 shares authorized (if they need to sell more to the public);</li>
<li>630,282,461 issued (meaning someone owns them);</li>
<li>96,598,567 in treasury (meaning the company owns 96 million of the 630 million issued.</li>
</ul>
<p>If the company reported the &#8220;outstanding&#8221; on the balance sheet, you would see 533.7 (~630.3-96.6) million in fiscal year 2006 and 552.3 (~630.3-78.0) million in fiscal year 2005.</p>
<p>In Item 5 of <a href="http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/823768/000095013407003484/h43426e10vk.htm#109" title="the company's 10-k (annual report)" target="blank" rel="nofollow">the company&#8217;s 10-k (annual report)</a>, they confirm that they repurchased ~31 million shares. Above, we show a reduction of 18.6 million shares. That means the company issued (via options or otherwise) another 12.4 million.</p>
<p>They will adjust the amount for every quarterly and annual report.</p>
<p>As to the second part of your question, a company is not supposed to be able to manipulate its stock price in the way you mentioned. If a company manipulates its news to inflate or depress the price, the SEC and attorney general will have a field day taking the executives to court. That said, I&#8217;m sure that the scenario plays out to a certain degree in reality. The old balance-between-what&#8217;s-legal-and-what&#8217;s-profitable tightrope act that a small number of companies will try.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-1135</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2008 13:55:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-1135</guid>
		<description>I have held Waste management for at least 5 years now and they have been buying back shares for @ least 3 years now, but my question is this. If they buy back lets say 10 million shares in 08 and today they are showing 500 million shares outstanding at what point do they adjust the number of outstanding shares?  I wouldn&#039;t think they could do this on a day to day here. 

Also is there any restrictions as to how they can buy back shares., after all whats to stop them from putting out bad news only  to buy back at  a lower price.

Your input  would be great.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have held Waste management for at least 5 years now and they have been buying back shares for @ least 3 years now, but my question is this. If they buy back lets say 10 million shares in 08 and today they are showing 500 million shares outstanding at what point do they adjust the number of outstanding shares?  I wouldn&#8217;t think they could do this on a day to day here. </p>
<p>Also is there any restrictions as to how they can buy back shares., after all whats to stop them from putting out bad news only  to buy back at  a lower price.</p>
<p>Your input  would be great.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Ponzio</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-370</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Ponzio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Oct 2007 06:56:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-370</guid>
		<description>SP: When a company &quot;cancels&quot; shares, they are removing them from the treasury and getting rid of them altogether. Those shares will no longer exist. That is a good thing for investors because $1,000 of assets on 1,000 shares means we get $1 of assets per share. $1,000 of assets on 500 shares means our interest effectively doubles to $2.

Jeff: A company has basically three values - the liquidation value, the ongoing &quot;forever&quot; value, and the &quot;somewhere in-between&quot; value. In general, when valuing a business, I don&#039;t expect it to continue forever and I don&#039;t expect it to break up tomorrow. As such, I try to value it as if I were going to hold it for twenty years, and then decide what to do with it.

You can value it for ten years, and then add a sales price in (a la Mohnish Pabrai) or value it forever and just put a dollar amount on cash flow and ignore the assets entirely. I have found that the 20-year valuation gives a very tight correlation between price and value over the long-term.

Hope that helps!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SP: When a company &#8220;cancels&#8221; shares, they are removing them from the treasury and getting rid of them altogether. Those shares will no longer exist. That is a good thing for investors because $1,000 of assets on 1,000 shares means we get $1 of assets per share. $1,000 of assets on 500 shares means our interest effectively doubles to $2.</p>
<p>Jeff: A company has basically three values &#8211; the liquidation value, the ongoing &#8220;forever&#8221; value, and the &#8220;somewhere in-between&#8221; value. In general, when valuing a business, I don&#8217;t expect it to continue forever and I don&#8217;t expect it to break up tomorrow. As such, I try to value it as if I were going to hold it for twenty years, and then decide what to do with it.</p>
<p>You can value it for ten years, and then add a sales price in (a la Mohnish Pabrai) or value it forever and just put a dollar amount on cash flow and ignore the assets entirely. I have found that the 20-year valuation gives a very tight correlation between price and value over the long-term.</p>
<p>Hope that helps!</p>
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		<title>By: jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-360</link>
		<dc:creator>jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:24:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-360</guid>
		<description>Ok. Looks like I missed a key point in your company valuation tutorial.  

I didnt predict enough years of cash flow for TM.  I think that  I thought that I was closing in on a normalized rate or something. I should have used a multiplier like 20.7/23.5  to compare my approximation.  

What is the significance of projecting for exactly 20 years ?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok. Looks like I missed a key point in your company valuation tutorial.  </p>
<p>I didnt predict enough years of cash flow for TM.  I think that  I thought that I was closing in on a normalized rate or something. I should have used a multiplier like 20.7/23.5  to compare my approximation.  </p>
<p>What is the significance of projecting for exactly 20 years ?</p>
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		<title>By: SP</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-356</link>
		<dc:creator>SP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-356</guid>
		<description>Joe-

Do you know if when a company says it&#039;s buying back shares and &quot;canceling&quot; them, this is the same thing as the buybacks going into the treasury? I&#039;d assumed &quot;canceling&quot; meant taking them out of circulation for good. 

sp</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe-</p>
<p>Do you know if when a company says it&#8217;s buying back shares and &#8220;canceling&#8221; them, this is the same thing as the buybacks going into the treasury? I&#8217;d assumed &#8220;canceling&#8221; meant taking them out of circulation for good. </p>
<p>sp</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-349</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-349</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m going to take a stab at this and answer my own question  based on your examples and morningstar. This will be my first attempt at this.

If I look at TM&#039;s free cash flow from 2001 to 2007, I get

2001	$ 12,887

2002	$ 12,265

2003	$ 16,978

2004	$ 20,096

2005	$ 22,148

2006	$ 22,341

2007	$ 27,749

which calculates to a 13 % growth rate

Since times are tough on the auto makers, I will give them a break and lower this rate to 10% for the next 5 years

2007	$ 27,749

2008	$ 30,523

2009	$ 33,576

2010	$ 36,933

2011	$ 40,627

2012	$ 42,658

total = $ 212,069

I expect TM to generate $ 212,069 in future cash by 2012

Using M$ Excel and a discount rate of 15% ( =NPV(15%,2012-2007,212069-0) ), I know that I will need to invest $ 160,358 today to buy this future cash.

If I add in today&#039;s total equity of $ 99,042 , I arrive at an intrinsic value of $ 259,400 Mil or $ 259.4 Bil

Since there are 1.8 Bil shares OS, I can see that (259.4 / 1.8) = $ 144 share price

Using a margin of safety of 25%, my target price would be $ 108

It looks like I may have overpaid at $118 unless my logic is flawed. Hmm.... should I hope so or not... 

And, back to my original question, could this value be higher with the TM share buy back ?

Sorry for the lengthy post

Thanks,

Jeff

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m going to take a stab at this and answer my own question  based on your examples and morningstar. This will be my first attempt at this.</p>
<p>If I look at TM&#8217;s free cash flow from 2001 to 2007, I get</p>
<p>2001	$ 12,887</p>
<p>2002	$ 12,265</p>
<p>2003	$ 16,978</p>
<p>2004	$ 20,096</p>
<p>2005	$ 22,148</p>
<p>2006	$ 22,341</p>
<p>2007	$ 27,749</p>
<p>which calculates to a 13 % growth rate</p>
<p>Since times are tough on the auto makers, I will give them a break and lower this rate to 10% for the next 5 years</p>
<p>2007	$ 27,749</p>
<p>2008	$ 30,523</p>
<p>2009	$ 33,576</p>
<p>2010	$ 36,933</p>
<p>2011	$ 40,627</p>
<p>2012	$ 42,658</p>
<p>total = $ 212,069</p>
<p>I expect TM to generate $ 212,069 in future cash by 2012</p>
<p>Using M$ Excel and a discount rate of 15% ( =NPV(15%,2012-2007,212069-0) ), I know that I will need to invest $ 160,358 today to buy this future cash.</p>
<p>If I add in today&#8217;s total equity of $ 99,042 , I arrive at an intrinsic value of $ 259,400 Mil or $ 259.4 Bil</p>
<p>Since there are 1.8 Bil shares OS, I can see that (259.4 / 1.8) = $ 144 share price</p>
<p>Using a margin of safety of 25%, my target price would be $ 108</p>
<p>It looks like I may have overpaid at $118 unless my logic is flawed. Hmm&#8230;. should I hope so or not&#8230; </p>
<p>And, back to my original question, could this value be higher with the TM share buy back ?</p>
<p>Sorry for the lengthy post</p>
<p>Thanks,</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-348</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:20:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-348</guid>
		<description>Joe,

Thanks for the great information.  I have just recently stumbled upon this site and have become fascinated with your teachings regarding company valuations.

I found today&#039;s blog on stock buy backs very interesting. I already own some Toyota stock but wonder if it was a smart buy in the $118 range.  What is your take on TM and their recent stock buy back plan ? Smart move as it may relate to an undervalued stock or are they also morons ?

Thanks in advance and please keep up the blogging. I&#039;ve become addicted to your writings.

Jeff

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe,</p>
<p>Thanks for the great information.  I have just recently stumbled upon this site and have become fascinated with your teachings regarding company valuations.</p>
<p>I found today&#8217;s blog on stock buy backs very interesting. I already own some Toyota stock but wonder if it was a smart buy in the $118 range.  What is your take on TM and their recent stock buy back plan ? Smart move as it may relate to an undervalued stock or are they also morons ?</p>
<p>Thanks in advance and please keep up the blogging. I&#8217;ve become addicted to your writings.</p>
<p>Jeff</p>
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		<title>By: Casey Mattson</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you/#comment-346</link>
		<dc:creator>Casey Mattson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:53:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/67-stock-buybacks-what-that-means-for-you#comment-346</guid>
		<description>Thanks Joe.

Some of my random thoughts:

I know this is not as much a spreadsheet issue as one would like.  Bottom line, are the other factors (ie: owner earnings growing) trending as one would like, then make an assesment as to the effect of the buyback.  

Problem with just adding back buyback to equity is then where do we place that adjustment in our spreadsheet.  The cash would be higher if not for the buyback, so CROIC would be lower.  I guess the way the spreadsheet is set up that is taken care of.(?)

Do you even recommend as part of the &quot;art of valuation&quot; to perform an addback to equity for purposes in the spreadsheet? Similar to removing a down year in a company&#039;s past due to some irregularity?

Guess it is an &quot;educated gut feel kind a thing&quot;.

Thanks for taking the time to put your original post up, it is much appreciated.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Joe.</p>
<p>Some of my random thoughts:</p>
<p>I know this is not as much a spreadsheet issue as one would like.  Bottom line, are the other factors (ie: owner earnings growing) trending as one would like, then make an assesment as to the effect of the buyback.  </p>
<p>Problem with just adding back buyback to equity is then where do we place that adjustment in our spreadsheet.  The cash would be higher if not for the buyback, so CROIC would be lower.  I guess the way the spreadsheet is set up that is taken care of.(?)</p>
<p>Do you even recommend as part of the &#8220;art of valuation&#8221; to perform an addback to equity for purposes in the spreadsheet? Similar to removing a down year in a company&#8217;s past due to some irregularity?</p>
<p>Guess it is an &#8220;educated gut feel kind a thing&#8221;.</p>
<p>Thanks for taking the time to put your original post up, it is much appreciated.</p>
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