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Why This Won’t Be Like 1929

March 8, 2009  |  Joe Ponzio

Let me continue this economic discussion, though I also have to get back to a few other topics as well. There is a lot of chatter as to whether we are in a recession or depression. Since November of 2007, Wall Street has been calling bottoms to this market, first setting their sights on Dow 13,000, and then incrementally lowering their targets by 1,000 points as time marched on.

Optimism and pessimism have no place in investing. Let’s look at the economy from a realistic perspective to see why this recession will be nothing like the Great Depression.

The Consumer Who Spent Too Much

Let’s face it: The United States has a consumer-driven economy. Some will have you believe that this is exactly why we are headed for a depression. “You can’t rely on the consumer! It’s fake growth! You have to manufacture! You have to produce!”

In theory, that makes a lot of sense. How long can an economy prosper, if at all, if it primarily relies on consumers and consumer spending?

If we are to believe that an economy can’t rely primarily on consumers and consumer spending, the entire US economy’s growth has been a sham. Not just recent growth, but the majority of growth for the past seventy years.

See, since 1929 (the earliest GDP data available at the BEA), consumer spending has made up 65.8% of GDP, on average. That is, we have always been a consumer-driven economy.

Over the past two decades, the problem with the US consumer is that (s)he started spending a bit too much. Ours is not a country of debt-laden, useless, broke slobs. In fact, by merely saving an extra 8% to 10% of her paycheck, Jane American can be financially stronger than she’s ever been in the past (save the 1940s World War II era).

Her portfolio may be in shambles. Still, no matter how bad things seem, it’s never too late to make some intelligent decisions and get back on track.

In doing so, Jane is not “destroying” America or putting the economy into a downward spiral. (Think of how the media rejoiced yesterday when the consumer surprised the market with spending.)

“Impossible!” naysayers scream. “Unemployment is 8.1% and rising!”

Right, which means that employment is 91.9% which means that 91.9% of our consumer-driven economy can start saving more. And if unemployment rises to 15%, then 85% of Americans can focus on spending a little less and saving a little more.

It’s Happening Now

In the fourth quarter of 2008, personal saving exploded – from 0.4% a year earlier to 3.2%, a hell of a jump in just one year. In fact, at no other point in the past fifty years have Americans increased their savings as a percentage of disposable income as quickly as they have in the past year.

In addition, nonmortgage interest payments started plummeting, down 13% from a year earlier. In the past fifty years, the amount of nonmortgage interest paid by consumers has never dropped so quickly. In fact, from 1948 to 1987 – pretty damn good years in this country- this number never fell.

This has little to do with low interest rates. We know that credit card companies have dramatically increased rates over the past two years. So…people are saving more and paying off debt.

And these numbers are skewed as the savings rate is even greater. Clearly (and sadly) the unemployed can not save; so, they don’t contribute to the top line figures (gross wages), and they detract from the bottom line figures (the unemployed are generally not net savers while they are unemployed).

If you look beyond the numbers, 91.9% of American consumers have, in the aggregate, been paying off debt and saving more and more in recent months. The American consumer spent $240 billion less last quarter than in the previous quarter.

(This, in turn, helps bank balance sheets as well which ultimately helps get us out of the crisis. As consumers save and get healthier, banks also get healthier.)

Forget GDP for a second. It’s dropping. It will continue to drop for a while. The key to a healthy consumer-based economy is not higher GDP – that can be accomplished through nothing more than inflation, if needed. The real key to a healthy consumer-based economy is, well, a healthy consumer.

But We Don’t Manufacture Anything! Trade Deficits!

I know it’s easy to think that. Many of us, especially those of us that are online, reading investment websites, are in cities working service jobs. We also know that the US is a net importer – we’ve been running a trade deficit for years. Some people attribute that deficit to a lack of manufacturing in this county; others say that it’s due to our insatiable demand for foreign goods.

Is manufacturing and production dead in this country? Hardly. In 1929, for each citizen in the United States, we exported about $44 in goods and services. By 2008, that number had grown to more than $4,200 per person. As a percentage of GDP, exports have grown from about 4% in the 1930s to more than 7% in the 2000s.

Both per person and as a percentage of GDP, we manufacture and export more in this country than at any other time in the past seventy years. (Want to fix the trade deficit? I’m not one for “protectionism;” but, if we all just chose to spend $98 per month more on American than foreign goods, our trade deficit is gone.)

In fact, after taking into account inflation, we now produce and export fifteen times more than we did in 1950. Do we produce stuff in this country? More and more each year. So, before we jump to the conclusion that we have no manufacturing outflows from this country, or that the US is a black hole, sucking down foreign goods and services and giving nothing back to the world, consider this: As a percentage of GDP, the amount of goods we exported and the amount of services we exported in 2007 and 2008 were higher than they have ever been since 1929.

In addition, our trade deficit isn’t impossible to overcome. In fact, ours has been shrinking since its 2006 peak. As it shrinks, GDP and our economy grows as a net trade deficit reduces GDP while a net surplus would add to GDP.

When Businesses Cut Back, Look Out

Over the past seventy years, “private investment” has averaged about 15% of GDP. This isn’t investing in the sense of stocks and bonds; rather, it’s the spending that businesses do on equipment, plants, etc. Business investors call these “capital expenditures.”

In every recession, businesses cut their spending on these items as they anticipate lower revenues which will lead to a strained ability to generate cash. The chart below shows Private Investment as a percentage of GDP since 1950, with the grey areas being periods of recession.

To preserve cash, these businesses also lay off workers. In essence, they shrink in real terms…for a while.

To quote Buffett on deferring capital expenditures:

…though dentists correctly claim that if you ignore your teeth they’ll go away, the same is not true for [capital expenditures].

Eventually, these businesses will have to repair or replace equipment, and otherwise ramp up spending. That doesn’t happen, of course, until we’ve swung from “panic and fear” to “I’m glad that’s over.”

In every economy, businesses, in the aggregate, swing like a pendulum – hiring and spending when times are good, and firing and preserving cash when times are bad. In addition to business spending, part of this “private investment” component to GDP is residential spending – spending by households on, well, houses.

If we take residential spending out of the picture for a second, here’s a chart of “private investment” as a percentage of GDP.

Remove Real Estate? But It Is Real Estate, Stupid!

Real estate spending has slowed. Then again, residential real estate spending falls in every recession, and even a few times when we’re not in a recession. Here’s the chart:

We know that foreclosures are still rising; but, let’s think logically about this for a second: In the mid-2000s, we had rampant real estate speculation. People had two, three, four homes/condos. Everyone with a pickup truck was a “developer,” their mothers were real estate agents, and their fathers were mortgage brokers. (Just like when everyone was a day-trader in the late 1990s and early 2000s.)

When home prices started falling, the first to get hit were the speculators. A mechanic with four condos waiting to be flipped was in no better position if he only held three; so, speculators like this had no choice but to flood the market with inventory – being foreclosed on two, three, four properties at a time. Other careless speculators would also walk away from their “investments” as soon as they knew they couldn’t flip them for a profit.

In that sort of environment, we would expect foreclosures to surge initially, especially in the “hottest” real estate markets – places like Nevada, California, Arizona, and Florida. It should come as no surprise, then, that these states have the highest foreclosure rates.

Making up just 21% of this country’s population, these four states have 53% of the country’s foreclosures. Though rising unemployment will add to these figures, the overwhelming majority of gainfully employed people will not walk away from their homes simply because others have. And, while the media focuses on the people struggling to modify their mortgages on underwater homes, let’s keep in mind the tens of millions of people that didn’t buy homes in 2005 through 2007.

(People are using scare tactics as though everyone in this country, or even the majority of people, bought overpriced homes in 2006, are now underwater, and will soon leave the banks to foot the bill on every mortgage they hold.)

Because of that, even though we’re seeing rising unemployment, foreclosures in these four states rose 46% over the past year while foreclosures in the remaining 46 states fell, in the aggregate, by 2%.

(These statistics reflect foreclosure filings, default notices, auction sale notices, and bank repossessions.)

Then Versus Now

You can’t compare today to the Great Depression. In 1930, GDP fell 12%. By the end of 1933, GDP had fallen more than 45% from its 1929 levels, and unemployment was wildly out of control.

What changed in 1933 and 1934 that would turn the economy around?

I hate to say it…Government Spending.

Gasp. Government Spending.

The fourth component of GDP (after consumer spending, private investment, and net imports/exports) is government spending. The government is not a stimulative factor to the economy; rather, it is an employer and spender of last resort. When businesses are firing and cutting back on private investment, the government typically ramps up its hiring and spending to keep the consumer afloat until businesses can get back on track for growth.

By 1941, prior to World War II, the US economy was already larger and stronger than it was in 1929. Unemployment had fallen to less than 10%, GDP had more than doubled from its 1933 bottom, and businesses, which had previously cut private investment from $16 billion in 1929 to just $1.7 billion in 1933, were back on track spending $18 billion in 1941.

Without World War II, our recovery would have continued to be gradual. From an economic standpoint, World War II put our economic recovery on steroids. The butcher, the baker, and the bread maker sprinted back to the US.

But This Spending Is Different! It’s Too Much!

In 1929, non-defense federal spending was just 0.77% of GDP. During the first three years of the Depression, the government did nothing to help curb the decay, actually paring back spending while Americans were losing jobs. Enter Roosevelt, the New Deal, and deficit government spending. (Roosevelt took the country off the gold standard to fund the recovery. Imagine what the headlines were back then!)

Roosevelt more than quadrupled non-defense federal spending to where it would ultimately become more than 5% of GDP in 1936. In essence, Roosevelt and the US Government filled the void when businesses couldn’t or wouldn’t put people to work. By 1942, unemployment was back below 5%, private investment was back on track, having grown tenfold since the 1932 low, and the consumer was healthy again.

One could argue that today’s proposed spending is too much. I’m not going to speak to the fundamental policy changes they’re proposing; but, I’ll tell you this: When Joe American loses his job and can’t find work, he’ll gladly help the government build the high speed train from New York to LA so that he can put food on his table.

So long as Joe is getting a paycheck, we won’t have a depression.

But Higher Taxes Kill Growth!

So the government is proposing higher taxes, and that stunts economic growth, right? After all, who in their right mind would ever start a business or grow their business if Uncle Sam is taking a bigger piece of the pie?

Yet from its 1933 low to pre-war 1941, the economy grew 125%, roughly 10% per year (faster than China today), while taxes on the “rich” went from 25% in 1929 to 81%, with the lowest bracket going from 0.375% to 10%, all while businesses were being launched, business spending was on the rise, and unemployment was dropping.

Though lower taxes might encourage growth, higher taxes don’t kill growth. They provide critical funding for the spender and employer of last resort at a time when businesses are ratcheting down their spending and work force. (This is not a political or partisan statement, but a matter of history.)

And let’s not forget – our country did pretty darn well and a lot of businesses were started and grew from 1940 through 1986, a time during which the top tax bracket was never below 50% (and sometimes as high as 92%).

I’m not one for higher taxes; but, ours are extremely low compared to the historical average.

The Stock Market, Then and Now

A lot of people look at the stock market as a sign of our economic health, the same way that they view daily stock prices as a sign of a company’s health. A year into the Great Depression, stocks had fallen at a pace similar to what we’ve seen over the past eighteen months. Stock prices, however, are not a sign of the economy.

The 90% stock market plunge of the Great Depression was insane. Then again, from top to bottom, GDP – the US economy – fell 45% from 1929 through 1933. Their market effectively crashed in October; our market started crashing in October. They had a banking crisis; we have a banking crisis. Theirs was global in scope; ours is global in scope.

Those are about the only similarities one can draw.

By this time in the Great Depression, unemployment was nearing 20%. Today it’s 8.1%. First year Depression GDP had fallen 12%; ours grew 3% in the first year of this crisis. Depression-era government did nothing to stop the fall in the first three years; ours is trying to stop the bleeding and to, in time, create jobs to keep the consumer healthy and offset business losses.

I can promise you this: The inflation that follows as a result of today’s actions is certainly better than the hard times of the Depression. Nobody would dare say that the high inflation of the late 1970s and early 1980s was anything like the utter despair of the early 1930s.

Those Toxic Assets & Credit Flow

Let me end with the garbage that started this in the first place: Frozen credit and level 3 “assets.” Let’s start with Buffett on these level 3 derivatives in his 2002 Letter to Shareholders:

In banking, the recognition of a “linkage” problem was one of the reasons for the formation of the Federal Reserve System. Before the Fed was established, the failure of weak banks would sometimes put sudden and unanticipated liquidity demands on previously-strong banks, causing them to fail in turn. The Fed now insulates the strong from the troubles of the weak. But there is no central bank assigned to the job of preventing the dominoes toppling in insurance or derivatives. In these industries, firms that are fundamentally solid can become troubled simply because of the travails of other firms further down the chain. When a “chain reaction” threat exists within an industry, it pays to minimize links of any kind.

With so many banks, brokers, insurance companies, pensions, and hedge funds tied together in a derivative cesspool, the failure of any one of these large institutions would pose a systematic risk. Lehman failed, and the system froze. (Hence the bailouts, to prevent further problems and “minimize links of any kind.”)

We’re all mad as hell, and rightfully so. Still, it’s not the end of the world.

The economy is shrinking somewhat, but certainly not as fast as the Depression. In addition, we have the backstops in place (government spending) to keep us afloat if businesses continue to contract. Though we’re engaging in deficit spending, we’re issuing bonds at 2%.

At 2%, the government should borrow as much as it can, reinvest it in America at 5% or 6% GDP growth, and thank the world for providing the funding. This is good debt, assuming our leaders don’t waste it all studying pig farts.

People are saving more and paying off debt, which directly strengthens bank balance sheets. Though credit locked up in October of 2008, it has gradually started flowing again (see the TED Spread) which means that businesses and individuals – healthy businesses and individuals – can conduct business or manage their finances.

(The fact that the $18,000-a-year couple still can’t get a $700,000 mortgage like they could two years ago is a good thing.)

The stock market is getting to a point where it is predicting the end of capitalism. Some businesses will go away; some will grow stronger. Be realistic for a second: until the government gets into the soft drink business, Coca-Cola is a pretty safe bet. Of course, most people don’t belong in stocks in the first place.

Is this the end of capitalism and America? If we ignore the facts and listen to the media, it must be. And I fear it will end the same way America ended during the last six depressions:

Early last week, when the headlines noted that the market’s losses had reached the worst levels of any decline since the late- 1930s, some analysts dutifully trotted out new “how low can it go” numbers for the Dow Jones industrial average. Would 6,000 do it? Maybe 5,000? One estimate came in at 777, with a forecast for an accompanying U.S. economic depression. – LA Times, 10/13/2002

No. The nation is in an economic depression. Gramm-Rudman is not going to solve that, and cutting the budget to the bone will only make things worse. We need to return to American System economics, and fast. We need aid from the Asians and Europeans, and the Paris-Berlin-Vienna triangle of industrial production. – Scott Gaulke (D), LA Times, 05/27/1990

Economic depressions may not be a thing of the past, according to some respected economists. The experts cite some striking parallels between 1929 and today, including the overheated stock market, trade imbalances and the rise in protectionism, greater polarization in the distribution of wealth and the prevailing mood of optimism among investors and the general public. – Chicago Tribune, 10/9/1987

Concerned that there’s no relief in sight from high interest rates, many Americans believe the country is now in an economic depression. – Washington Post, 7/26/1982

Depression. It is a word to send shivers down the spine of anyone over 50 years old. It evokes dark images of bread lines and bankruptcies, dust bowls and suicides. It is also a word being used by responsible public figures generally liberals for the first time since the nineteenthirties to describe the state of the nation’s economy. – NY Times, 3/7/1975

Marshall McLuhan, the intellectual comet from Canada who now resides at Fordham University, startled broadcasting executives here today with a forecast that the United States will have an economic depression “within about five years.” – Washington Post, 9/29/1967

Joe Ponzio

By Joe Ponzio

March 8, 2009

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The Discussion
Chris
Chris
March 8, 2009 at 4:23pm

Very good read Joe. Your thoughts are presented very coherently and logically. Would you be able to tell me where you found or compiled this data from? In the future I would like to keep tabs on some of the numbers here.

March 8, 2009 at 4:36pm
Joe Ponzio replied,

Thanks Chris. Here you go:

Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) National Income and Product Accounts Tables – to find GDP, GNP, personal savings, and a slew of other economic data.

Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis – to find interest rate information, consumer and commercial lending, and a slew of other banking data.

Internal Revenue Service – Historical Tax Rates: Individuals | Corporate

Joe Ponzio
Rene
Rene
March 8, 2009 at 10:08pm

Great post Joe! I agree with almost everything you say here. One disagreement, (and perhaps I’m wrong about my economic history) is where you say:

“If we are to believe that an economy can’t rely primarily on consumers and consumer spending, the entire US economy’s growth has been a sham. Not just recent growth, but the majority of growth for the past seventy years.

See, since 1929 (the earliest GDP data available at the BEA), consumer spending has made up 65.8% of GDP, on average. That is, we have always been a consumer-driven economy.”

Now correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t Japan basically manufacturing the little umbrellas we put in drinks at that time? Wasn’t “made in Japan” a commentary on something’s inferior quality? Wasn’t the rest of the world basically a back water producing next to nothing of value? Therefore, wasn’t just about everything all those American consumers were consuming “Made in the U.S.A.? Does it matter that we,

“Both per person and as a percentage of GDP, we manufacture and export more in this country than at any other time in the past seventy years.”, if relative to China and others that is still piss poor? If after consuming all that, we still go out and consume even more of foreign goods? It seems to me that the first part of that 70 years was not a problem, but then things started changing at first slowly and then exponentially.

I still think you are right, that the basic thrust of your post is right on the money, unless of course, we totally flub the banking mess side of it. To be honest, I really don’t know what to think of that one. One minute I think Citi and others should be allowed to go bankrupt, the next that they should be nationalized and the next that we should continue the bailout.

Madhawk
Madhawk
March 9, 2009 at 10:59am

The argument over depression versus recession is one of semantics. I may have my date wrong, but the term recession was coined in about 1933 by the Roosevelt administration as re-depression. The U.S. economy which had been growing from the pit of the depression following 1929 had re-entered a phase of decline. It had re-depressed.

The real question now is not semantics. It is: are we experiencing a de-leveraging event (circa 1929 and Japan in the 90s) or are we experiencing a normal bout of economic contraction and then expansion brought on/corrected by monetary policy? Joe what you have described is a de-leveraging.

Unfortunately, a de-leveraging takes longer to get out of then a simple monetary policy related contraction. Turning economic activity and creating growth during a de-leveraging is completely dependent on spending and employment because monetary policy (lowering interest rates) is no longer effective due to the zero rate environment. In a typical recession, cutting interest rates prompts borrowing, positive wealth effects, and invesment which eventually leads to a recovery in employment. In a de-leveraging, the inability to continue cutting rates leave only spending of current income to lean on for a reversal of economic decline. No income/employment equals no demand/spending. Saving instead of borrowing further alters demand/spending in the economy and enhances the dependence on employment for economic recovery.

This de-leveraging won’t be as bad as the Great Depression because of the government spending and employment specialization. By the way, the government stimulus is probably not big enough. In 1930s unemployment got above 20%, but you have to remember that are large portion of the population was still engaged in subsistence farming. Now, nobody is engaged in subsistence farming. We’ve all become highly specialized employees emphasizing our comparative advantages. This should put a cap on unemployment. More of a concern is Japan in the 1990s where the powers that be refused to face the de-leveraging head on and let the economy stagger for years. People/companies saved in order to right size their balance sheets which is a dynamic that you described Joe. They did not borrow in the tough times and spend with thoughts of economic opportunity and saving in the future dancing in their heads. Right now, the U.S. government is refusing to take on the current de-leveraging.

Having said all that. There are still some spectacular buys out there. I don’t foresee a greater buying opportunity for some things ever again. There are signficant opportunities to soundly thump the markets over the next few years. It’s a great time to be a value investor.

maddog
maddog
March 9, 2009 at 3:06pm

Great post! I am clueless whether this is enough stimulus or not. Two great differences between the 30’s and now are the number of social security recipients, which will grow every day as the baby boomers retire and unemployment ins , neither of which were in place in1930. The down side to this,we know how they are currently funded.

Ryan For Johnson&Johnson Stock Market
Ryan For Johnson&Johnson Stock Market
March 18, 2009 at 2:28am

Depression this word is going popular in the current USA market</a> situation. Its very difficult to come out from the high interest.So its right that most of USA people think that they are in a big economic trouble. http://www.stocknod.com/JNJ-Johnson-And-Johnson-stock-prices.aspx

Amit
Amit
March 19, 2009 at 6:53pm

Great Read! A

Aaron
Aaron
March 21, 2009 at 7:59pm

This kind of analysis is exactly what Ken Fisher describes in “The only three questions that count” – Well done. Let’s hope your stock picks fair better than Mr. Fishers (at least last year) in the next year.

March 23, 2009 at 11:35am

As we stand today, our manufacturing compared to that of China is “spit.” If, however, today’s bailouts have the (seemingly) desired effect, inflation will bring the value of the dollar down which will make American exports less expensive to foreign importers and will raise the cost of American imports, forcing people and businesses to consider buying American. To protect its own growth, China will eventually have to unpeg their currency (the renminbi) from the dollar or it, too, will experience higher import costs and lower export profits – clearly bad news for its rapidly expanding economy and country.

Without outright declaring a “Buy American” protectionist policy, that’s what the government seems to be pursuing right now through monetary policy.

The pains of deleveraging are less severe than the pains of a 1930s-style depression. The trade-off is that our current recovery will likely take longer and have different consequences. On the one hand, we could argue that we shouldn’t bailout the banks. The problem with that argument is that, though the educated, business-minded readers of F Wall Street would find opportunities (in work, in business, etc), the majority of people would be screwed well beyond a less-than-desireable retirement portfolio and one-in-ten chance of losing their paycheck.

On the other hand, we could argue that the banks should not have been allowed to fail. This helps the majority of people, but doesn’t help the educated, business-minded people (like you) that would have seized the opportunity to build something new and great from the ashes of fallen companies.

We have to weigh the risks vs. the rewards, not solely from a financial perspective, but a social order and peace of mind perspective. Which would make our country more delicate from a foreign power/terrorist/business standpoint:

  • a 25% economic contraction, with 90% less business spending, 25% unemployment, and citizens unwilling to defend their country because they will not rally behind their government that failed them in their time of need?
  • an 8% contraction, high inflation, 12% unemployment, 30% less business spending, and citizens that are in pain, but have not hit rock bottom?

I’m not making economic predictions here. My point is this: If we let the system rebook ala the Great Depression, how long before we are attacked, taken over, or taken out? (It’s easier today than it was in the 1930s.) Would people immediately jump up to rally behind our leaders in this scenario? I’m not sure.

World War II broke out long after we had bottomed out – people were getting back to work, and we were on the road to recovery. Even still, we didn’t jump head first into the War, choosing instead to continue rebuilding our system for a few years. Could we pursue that path today?

There’s a lot more behind this than the numbers, and we’re dealing on a scale much larger and more dangerous than during the Great Depression. If it were purely a stock market / let the weak banks fail problem, the bailout would be wrong. When factoring in the then what, we need the bailout.

Though I admit – certain aspects of it are being handled very poorly.

Howard MBA Student
Howard MBA Student
March 23, 2009 at 8:57pm

Mr. Ponzio,

I saw you speak at Howard University two weeks ago and I wanted to thank you again for a brilliant presentation. I sent you an email but I wanted everyone else to know how great it was too! I felt like I was watching Warren Buffett in person. I know that sounds crazy. But Mr. Ponzio definitely has “it”.

We normally have executives from companies like Citi and other big wall street firms. Mr. Ponzio blew them all out of the water. He kept saying what an honor it was to speak at Howard, but I contend that the honor was really ours.

To everyone that reads this website-

If you ever need a speaker at an event, you need Mr. Ponzio. (And please let us know where he will be speaking so I can attend.)

If you ever need someone to manage your portfolio or pension, you need Mr. Ponzio.

Thank you again Mr. Ponzio. Brilliant.

Stan & Mel
Stan & Mel
April 1, 2009 at 10:16am

Why is there nothing about oil companies or oil service companies on your site. These seem to have been big money makers for investors over time. Is it because these are difficult industries to follow?

Stan

Steve
Steve
April 1, 2009 at 3:36pm

Almost a month since a new post. Am I the only one getting restless for a new post?

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