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	<title>Comments on: Value Investing vs. Value Pretending</title>
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	<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/</link>
	<description>Value Investing Blog</description>
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		<title>By: AJ</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2037</link>
		<dc:creator>AJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2037</guid>
		<description>Hi, Joe.

Do you know of any business schools (besides Columbia) that teach along the lines of Graham &amp; Dodd?  I want to avoid schools that emphasize EMH/MPT--I only want to know enough about those ideas to debunk them intelligently.  I&#039;m after Graham &amp; Dodd plus a general business education: marketing, strategy, electives outside business (e.g. philosophy), etc.

Thanks.

AJ</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Joe.</p>
<p>Do you know of any business schools (besides Columbia) that teach along the lines of Graham &#038; Dodd?  I want to avoid schools that emphasize EMH/MPT&#8211;I only want to know enough about those ideas to debunk them intelligently.  I&#8217;m after Graham &#038; Dodd plus a general business education: marketing, strategy, electives outside business (e.g. philosophy), etc.</p>
<p>Thanks.</p>
<p>AJ</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2029</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 07:31:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2029</guid>
		<description>John P,

Go to your local library and pick up Standard and Poor%u2019s Industry Survey. It gives you the current environment of the specific industry along with the Industry Profile, trends, how the industry operates, key industry ratios and statistics and how to analyze a company in that industry.

Plus, it has a glossary and industry references (Periodicals, trade associations, Gov%u2019t agencies%u2026)and a comparative company analysis..

I hope this helps.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John P,</p>
<p>Go to your local library and pick up Standard and Poor%u2019s Industry Survey. It gives you the current environment of the specific industry along with the Industry Profile, trends, how the industry operates, key industry ratios and statistics and how to analyze a company in that industry.</p>
<p>Plus, it has a glossary and industry references (Periodicals, trade associations, Gov%u2019t agencies%u2026)and a comparative company analysis..</p>
<p>I hope this helps.</p>
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		<title>By: BPal</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2010</link>
		<dc:creator>BPal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 04:18:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2010</guid>
		<description>Joe good post.  Reading the comments about share repurchases and its effect on shareholder equity reminded me that once before you had thrown out the idea of posting on how to best factor in treasury stock in your intrinsic value calculation.  Is this something still on the horizon?  I think it could benefit a lot of people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe good post.  Reading the comments about share repurchases and its effect on shareholder equity reminded me that once before you had thrown out the idea of posting on how to best factor in treasury stock in your intrinsic value calculation.  Is this something still on the horizon?  I think it could benefit a lot of people.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2009</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:19:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2009</guid>
		<description>Joe, you rule.

That is all.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joe, you rule.</p>
<p>That is all.</p>
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		<title>By: Trader</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2008</link>
		<dc:creator>Trader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 21:33:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2008</guid>
		<description>Thanks Amit and Joe for your answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Amit and Joe for your answers.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe Ponzio</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2004</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe Ponzio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Aug 2008 09:13:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2004</guid>
		<description>Shareholder Equity is the base for valuation and provides insight into how steadily the business has grown over time. Morningstar&#039;s 10-year history is down; so, check out &lt;a href=&quot;http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?Symbol=GM&amp;amp&quot; title=&quot;GM&#039;s balance sheet on MSN Money&quot; target=&quot;blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;GM&#039;s balance sheet on MSN Money&lt;/a&gt;. If nothing else, you can easily see that the value of General Motors was slipping away as early as 2004.

You have to ask yourself &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; shareholder equity is slipping and &lt;i&gt;why&lt;/i&gt; CROIC is on the rise. If the business can maintain the same level of cash generating abilities on lower invested capital, that&#039;s good. If, however, the company is taking on debt or shedding assets, which will in turn &lt;i&gt;reduce&lt;/i&gt; its ability to generate excess cash, that&#039;s bad.

Make sense?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shareholder Equity is the base for valuation and provides insight into how steadily the business has grown over time. Morningstar&#8217;s 10-year history is down; so, check out <a href="http://moneycentral.msn.com/investor/invsub/results/statemnt.aspx?Symbol=GM&#038;amp" title="GM's balance sheet on MSN Money" target="blank" rel="nofollow">GM&#8217;s balance sheet on MSN Money</a>. If nothing else, you can easily see that the value of General Motors was slipping away as early as 2004.</p>
<p>You have to ask yourself <i>why</i> shareholder equity is slipping and <i>why</i> CROIC is on the rise. If the business can maintain the same level of cash generating abilities on lower invested capital, that&#8217;s good. If, however, the company is taking on debt or shedding assets, which will in turn <i>reduce</i> its ability to generate excess cash, that&#8217;s bad.</p>
<p>Make sense?</p>
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		<title>By: Amit D.</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2002</link>
		<dc:creator>Amit D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 10:48:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2002</guid>
		<description>Hey Trader,

To clarify a few points.  negative equity growth may occur when a company repurchases a substantial amount of its shares (remember treasury holds those repurchased common shares &lt;--this implies a cost to shareholder&#039;s equity).

Its true that a low CROIC company can achieve high FCF growth by taking on debt.  You can see this from Kraft, which has low CROIC with alot of debt on the balance sheet.  Interestingly, Kraft has NOT been able to increase FCF within the last 10 year time frame.  

Even more interesting, Warren Buffet has purchased shares of Kraft implying that he believes that the debt will be used as efficiently as possible with management&#039;s refocus on reorganizing the company for growth with its focused brands once expense systems are properly in place.

As Ponzio has taught us in previous posts, it is not the historical FCF growth that matters as much as THE FUTURE FCF growth.  Thus, management&#039;s expertise and honest corporate governance guidelines render increasing chances of enjoying modest sustainable long-term Growth.

Also, to answer your main question, shareholder&#039;s equity growth is important as  it is one of the facets of creating investment value.  One facet is the future cashflows, and the other is the net worth.  Of course, management can return shareholder&#039;s equity through various methods: sharebuybacks, dividends.  But it is NOT always in the best interest of sharehodlers for management to use shareholder&#039;s equity(i.e  buying back disproportionally high amounts of shares when they are at their most expensive).  In sum, there is alot of positives to be drawn from a company that has increased shareholder&#039;s equity by 7-10% CAGR while re-purchasing shares (10 year time-frame), it shows you that management has used equity efficiently while returning some of the gains to the investors.

I hope this helps a little ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Trader,</p>
<p>To clarify a few points.  negative equity growth may occur when a company repurchases a substantial amount of its shares (remember treasury holds those repurchased common shares &lt;&#8211;this implies a cost to shareholder&#8217;s equity).</p>
<p>Its true that a low CROIC company can achieve high FCF growth by taking on debt.  You can see this from Kraft, which has low CROIC with alot of debt on the balance sheet.  Interestingly, Kraft has NOT been able to increase FCF within the last 10 year time frame.  </p>
<p>Even more interesting, Warren Buffet has purchased shares of Kraft implying that he believes that the debt will be used as efficiently as possible with management&#8217;s refocus on reorganizing the company for growth with its focused brands once expense systems are properly in place.</p>
<p>As Ponzio has taught us in previous posts, it is not the historical FCF growth that matters as much as THE FUTURE FCF growth.  Thus, management&#8217;s expertise and honest corporate governance guidelines render increasing chances of enjoying modest sustainable long-term Growth.</p>
<p>Also, to answer your main question, shareholder&#8217;s equity growth is important as  it is one of the facets of creating investment value.  One facet is the future cashflows, and the other is the net worth.  Of course, management can return shareholder&#8217;s equity through various methods: sharebuybacks, dividends.  But it is NOT always in the best interest of sharehodlers for management to use shareholder&#8217;s equity(i.e  buying back disproportionally high amounts of shares when they are at their most expensive).  In sum, there is alot of positives to be drawn from a company that has increased shareholder&#8217;s equity by 7-10% CAGR while re-purchasing shares (10 year time-frame), it shows you that management has used equity efficiently while returning some of the gains to the investors.</p>
<p>I hope this helps a little <img src='http://www.fwallstreet.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Trader</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-2001</link>
		<dc:creator>Trader</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 18:17:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-2001</guid>
		<description>Hi Joe,

Does FCF translate into dividends and equity in the long run ?  A low CROIC company can achieve high FCF growth by taking on debt.   What does it mean if CROIC is high, but FCF growth is close to zero ? I was looking at morningstar data for UST and that is what I find.

Also, UST has a negative equity. and because of that it has boosted the CROIC calculation.  So, negative equity is good for CROIC, so why do we be concerned about increasing value of shareholder equity ?

I am very confused on how equity growth, FCF growth and CROIC growth ties together.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Joe,</p>
<p>Does FCF translate into dividends and equity in the long run ?  A low CROIC company can achieve high FCF growth by taking on debt.   What does it mean if CROIC is high, but FCF growth is close to zero ? I was looking at morningstar data for UST and that is what I find.</p>
<p>Also, UST has a negative equity. and because of that it has boosted the CROIC calculation.  So, negative equity is good for CROIC, so why do we be concerned about increasing value of shareholder equity ?</p>
<p>I am very confused on how equity growth, FCF growth and CROIC growth ties together.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel DeBellis</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-1996</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel DeBellis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 14:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-1996</guid>
		<description>I agree, there are a bunch of pretend value investor out there. Those that sell it as a style to gain more funds and those who misunderstand its meaning and buy an equity because it&#039;s some percentage off its high. The market will test these people. 

On the issue of volatility, I also agree it is trending up. Are people in general adding to or removing emotion from their decisions...are they becoming more rational? In an over communicated society, drowning in information and complexity...where&#039;s the simplicity and wisdom? How many guess vs understand? 

A billion or two new capitalists. Baby boomers who need to cheat time. Story tellers trying to trump reality at every turn. Fee driven behavior. It&#039;s an emotional issue first and foremost. Having the temperment to be a value investor is rare. When you live in a culture that&#039;s not conducive it&#039;s even more so. EMH is a delusion. Value investing has a bright future which is inversely proportional to the size of the sum you are investing. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree, there are a bunch of pretend value investor out there. Those that sell it as a style to gain more funds and those who misunderstand its meaning and buy an equity because it&#8217;s some percentage off its high. The market will test these people. </p>
<p>On the issue of volatility, I also agree it is trending up. Are people in general adding to or removing emotion from their decisions&#8230;are they becoming more rational? In an over communicated society, drowning in information and complexity&#8230;where&#8217;s the simplicity and wisdom? How many guess vs understand? </p>
<p>A billion or two new capitalists. Baby boomers who need to cheat time. Story tellers trying to trump reality at every turn. Fee driven behavior. It&#8217;s an emotional issue first and foremost. Having the temperment to be a value investor is rare. When you live in a culture that&#8217;s not conducive it&#8217;s even more so. EMH is a delusion. Value investing has a bright future which is inversely proportional to the size of the sum you are investing. </p>
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		<title>By: alanb9</title>
		<link>http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending/#comment-1995</link>
		<dc:creator>alanb9</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:28:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.fwallstreet.com/article/148-value-investing-vs-value-pretending#comment-1995</guid>
		<description>Did you write about LNY?  If you did, I missed it and can&#039;t find it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Did you write about LNY?  If you did, I missed it and can&#8217;t find it.</p>
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