You are here: Home » the Blog » Companies Analyzed (Generals) » Wells Fargo and Wachovia, by Quarter

Wells Fargo and Wachovia, by Quarter

By Joe Ponzio on February 11, 2009  |  42 comments

Wells Fargo Stagecoach

This is a continuation of Wells Fargo and Wachovia Together

It's the first quarter of 2008 and the proverbial you-know-what is hitting the fan. The credit crisis has begun; the recession has started; Bear Stearns will be a distant memory by the end of the quarter. Wellsovia sets aside $4.86 billion for credit losses this quarter, more than half of what it had set aside in the entire year 2007 if it were a combined entity.

Though Wellsovia — the soon-to-be-combined entity of Wells Fargo and Wachovia — reports just $980 million in earnings for the quarter, it generates roughly $1.5 billion in cash, when accounting for various non-cash charges like amortization of core deposits, restructuring charges, etc. If the company doesn't take the full $4.86 billion in credit hits, that amount will show up in earnings down the road; so, we make a note of it and move on.

2008: Wellsovia Q2

As the credit crisis and recession begin to grasp the economy and markets, Wachovia has some bad news for Mr. Market — it lost a staggering $9.8 billion in the second quarter. Will it survive the credit crisis as a stand-alone company? Mr. Market doesn't think so, and he sends Wachovia's price plummeting even further.

Part of Wachovia's loss is a $6 billion non-cash hit to goodwill. Even still, Wachovia chugs through nearly $5 billion of cash in the second quarter — not good for a company with just $47 billion in cash on the books at the end of the quarter.

At that rate, Wachovia will be out of cash in two and a half years, assuming things don't get worse.

Wellsovia fares much better than stand-alone Wachovia. Thanks to Wells Fargo, the combined entity would have burned through just $3 billion with nearly $70 billion of cash in the bank. And remember — Wellsovia put $8.5 billion aside for credit losses this quarter; so, it has taken a loss but has more than enough cash to cover it and keep going, and it has planned for tougher times ahead.

2008: Wellsovia Q3

Merrill who? Lehman who? Tougher times are here, and Wachovia "loses" $24 billion. Or does it? Of that $24 billion loss, $18.9 billion is "goodwill impairment." What does that mean? From Wachovia's Q3 2008 SEC filing:

The goodwill impairment analysis is a two-step test. The first step, used to identify potential impairment, involves comparing each reporting unit's fair value to its carrying value including goodwill. If the fair value of a reporting unit exceeds its carrying value, applicable goodwill is considered not to be impaired. If the carrying value exceeds fair value, there is an indication of impairment and the second step is performed to measure the amount of impairment.

The second step involves calculating an implied fair value of goodwill for each reporting unit for which the first step indicated impairment. The implied fair value of goodwill is determined in the same manner as the amount of goodwill recognized in a business combination, which is the excess of the fair value of the reporting unit, as determined in the first step, over the aggregate fair values of the individual assets, liabilities and identifiable intangibles as if the reporting unit was being acquired in a business combination. If the implied fair value of goodwill exceeds the goodwill assigned to the reporting unit, there is no impairment. If the goodwill assigned to a reporting unit exceeds the implied fair value of the goodwill, an impairment charge is recorded for the excess. An impairment loss recognized cannot exceed the amount of goodwill assigned to a reporting unit, and the loss establishes a new basis in the goodwill. Subsequent reversal of goodwill impairment losses is not permitted under applicable accounting standards.

Allow me to put that into Plain English: Wachovia carried its various business segments at a certain value on its balance sheet. When its stock price tanked, the "market value" of those businesses sank to prices well below the value carried on the balance sheet; so, Wachovia wrote off — or "impaired the goodwill of" — those segments to the tune of $18.9 billion.

No surprise there. Wachovia's market capitalization dropped $100 billion. It couldn't possibly carry its business segments at values higher than the price it would cost to purchase the entire business!

Wachovia also had roughly $800 million in other non-cash, temporary write-offs like restructuring charges and other amortization, and nearly $2 billion in securities losses — temporary losses in the sense that they should not be expected to be recurring during the remaining life of the company. (If they do, Wachovia should consider getting out of the investment business.)

As ugly as the quarter was for Wachovia, the combined Wellsovia would have done much better. After setting aside $9.1 billion for credit reserves, the combined company burned through just $600 million or so of cash. With $64 billion in cash at the end of the quarter, $600 million is but a drop in the bucket.

During the third quarter, Wells Fargo would also get $25 billion in TARP money, bringing the combined company's cash to roughly $89 billion.

2008: Wellsovia Q4

In this last quarter of 2008, Wells Fargo would complete its acquisition of Wachovia. Wells Fargo CEO John Stumpf allegedly says that he "loves" the acquisition. Why? Let's explore:

Wachovia was acquired in a stock-for-stock deal — no cash. Each share of Wachovia turned into 0.1991 shares of Wells Fargo. At the end of the third quarter of 2008 (Q4 reports haven't been filed yet), Wells Fargo had 3.321 billion shares outstanding and Wachovia had 2.136 billion shares out. So, Wells Fargo issued roughly 425 million shares — or 12.8% of its business — to acquire Wachovia for about $12 billion. In the first three quarters of 2008, Wachovia's operations burned through about $7 billion in cash — an alarming rate considering it started the year with just $33 billion in cash.

Without the merger, Wachovia alone might not have been around long enough to survive the credit crisis. Without the merger, Wells Fargo would probably have been just fine.

When the 10-Q is filed with the SEC in the next few days, we'll get a better idea of how the two fared. What we do know is that Wellsovia has taken significant hits to earnings so that it could build a $21.7 billion credit loss reserve, revalue Wachovia's business segments, complete the merger, and proceed with integration and restructuring.

So, what does John Stumpf love about the merger? Much of the fourth quarter $13.7 billion loss experienced by the combined entity was an accounting and de-risking loss which included a number or non-recurring or short-lived charges. In addition, Wells Fargo picked up all of that cash on Wachovia's balance sheet — much more than the $12 billion acquisition price. So, Wachovia was essentially free.

What a Sweet Deal!

Think of it this way: A friend of yours comes to you with a problem. He's got $100,000 in credit card debt that he can't afford to pay. If he declares bankruptcy, he'll lose his house and his family will be out in the cold. He's got $80,000 in the bank. If he uses that to pay down his debt, he'll be able to afford the monthly payments but won't have any "emergency" reserve fund. If he doesn't use that money to pay down his debt, bankruptcy is probably his only option.

So, you cut a deal. You will assume his credit card debt so he and his family can move forward. For doing so, he'll give you $70,000 cash and $10,000 of his annual earnings for the rest of his life. (You already had $100,000 in cash, little debt, and strong earnings.)

Because he will have credit again (now that you've assumed his debt), he doesn't need the full $80 grand — he can survive with a much smaller amount. You take his $80,000 and pay down the majority of the debt. Then, you pay the remaining $20,000 balance out of your own cash.

For your $20,000 "investment," you just picked up a lifetime of earnings.

That's the Wachovia deal in a nutshell. Wells Fargo paid roughly $12 billion for a company that, under normal circumstances, should generate $5 to $7 billion a year in excess cash. All Wells Fargo needs to do is assume the remaining losses on the loan portfolio.

2012: Wellsovia (Now Wells Fargo again)

What will Wells Fargo look like in 2012? Let's assume, for a second, that the credit crisis is behind us in 2012. The economy is back on track and things are returning to normal, just like after all other bank, real estate, economic, market, war, government, and other debacles we've overcome in the past. I may be wrong on the timing; still, I am right on the outcome.

How do I know? Because if I'm wrong, your/our/the world's problems are much more severe than losing money in Wells Fargo stock. If everything goes to hell in a hand basket, the least of our problems is our portfolio. Whether you have $100 or $100 million, it will be worthless because our currency would be entirely worthless.

So, we act greedy when others are fearful and know that, at some point, things will return to normal.

Wells Fargo, formerly known on F Wall Street as Wellsovia, is generating about $13 billion a year in owner earnings — a combination of Wells Fargo's earning power and that of Wachovia, net of, say, a 5% cost savings resulting from the merger.

That would mean that Wells Fargo would be worth north of $125 billion, and perhaps as high as $170 billion. Now, I can't say for certain what it will be worth at that point as the future is not entirely clear. Then again, we don't have to pin our valuation down to the nth decimal. If we know that Wells Fargo will survive this mess (and it is in a great position to do so, barring the hand basket scenario) and if we can reasonably predict its future cash flows (using, for example, the cash flow of the combined entity from 2004), we can come up with a reasonable estimation of its intrinsic value.

What Can We Expect Over The Next Two Years?

Together with Wachovia, Wells Fargo has taken quite a bit of write-offs over the last year. That doesn't mean that they're done doing so. In the 1994 real estate recession in California, Wells Fargo had a ton of exposure to that market. From March 31, 1994 through September 30, 1995, the company's shareholder equity dropped 8.5% as it wrote off some $200 million in bad loans ("provisions for credit losses") — a hefty sum to a company that, as the time, was generating just $200 million a quarter in earnings.

Today's situation is worse.

At the end of 2007, the two companies would have had a combined equity of $124 billion. By the end of 2008, that equity was just $67,000. If it continues to build its provision for loan losses, that figure may continue to drop.

As it goes through its massive merger and restructuring, earnings will be unimpressive at best, and possibly horrendous, depending on the costs of the merger, its need to continue to beef up its credit loss reserves, and its need (or desire) to amortize intangibles, depreciate assets, and "de-risk" its balance sheet.

The costs of the merger will probably stick around for twelve to twenty four months, but we'll treat them as non-recurring costs to see the "normal" state of Wells Fargo's business. The length and depth of the deleveraging process is yet to be seen. What we do know is this: The new, bigger Wells Fargo ended the year with $128.1 billion in a combination of cash, short-term investments, and "trading assets" — investments recorded at market value (so, there shouldn't be any real surprises there).

With an $864.8 billion loan portfolio, of which $21 billion has already been written off through those provisions for credit losses, a hell of a lot would have to go wrong for Wells Fargo to fall off the face of the Earth.

Because its earning power is so strong, Wells Fargo will be able to suffer quite a beating for quite some time, and still emerge a strong company. And when things return to "normal," the stock market will likely pay a very high price for its cheery consensus on Wells Fargo.

And that's why I like Wells Fargo.

Written by Joe Ponzio on February 11, 2009

Joe Ponzio is the managing partner of the Ponzio Investors Funds and owner of Ponzio Capital Inc, a registered investment advisory and deep value portfolio management firm. The author of F Wall Street (the book and the website), his articles have appeared in hundreds of financial media, including Financial Planning Magazine, CNBC.com, Yahoo! Finance, and Reuters. He has appeared numerous times nationally on both radio and television, and has presented at universities and seminars across the United States.

Read more articles like this online at www.fwallstreet.com.
To learn more about Joe's portfolio management services, visit www.ponziocapital.com.
The Discussion
Vik M.' gravatar

Vik M.
Feb 12th, 2009

Joe,

Thanks for taking the time to write up your thinking on Wellsovia. I've tried to evaluate Wells as a potential investment based on its tangible book value. I'm not able to put much stock into historical owner's earnings because I don't have a good feel for whether those results are truly sustainable, how much risk went into producing them and how badly they will be affected by ongoing economic conditions.

With this in mind, one statement from your writeup jumped out at me.

"With an $864.8 billion loan portfolio, of which $21 billion has already been written off through those provisions for credit losses, a hell of a lot would have to go wrong for Wells Fargo to fall off the face of the Earth."

To me, this is the heart of the issue. What confidence do we have that the $844 bil net worth of loans on Wells' books will stand the test of time? What confidence do we have that the $21 billion already written off is sufficiently conservative?

Let's put the $844 bil net worth of loans into perspective ...

$844 bil of net loans $466 bil of other assets ($117 bil of which is cash/securities) = $1,310 bil of total assets

$1,211 bil of total liabilities ($781 bil in deposits, $375 bil in debt, $54 bil in accrued liabilities)

$1,310 bil of total assets - $1,211 bil of total liabilities = $99 bil of book value

$99 bil of book value - $23 bil of goodwill - $16 bil of mortgage servicing rights = $60 bil of tangible book value

$60 bil of tangible book value - $31 bil of preferred stock = $29 bil of tangible book value available to common stockholders

$29 bil of common stockholder tangible book value / 3.6 bil diluted shares = $8 per share

Of course, Wells is worth more than just the net present value of its tangible book since it has the ability to produce economic earnings. Taking the 4th quarter earnings number and annualizing it, and then adding an additional $5 bil in cost synergies from the Wachovia merger gets me to roughly $21 bil of annual cash earnings power. In an ideal world (assuming a 10x multiple), this should be worth at least an additional $54 per share. But if things get materially worse from here on out, how confident can we be in Wells' ability to produce $21 bil of annual cash earnings. Surely, if defaults spike across the loan portfolio, the $21 bil will shrink. How do you try to stress-test these earings? Cut them in half? If so, Wells common stock should be worth $35 per share (10x $10.5 bil in annual cash earnings $8 per share in tangible common equity).

But here's the problem. What confidence do we have that the $844 bil net worth of loans are actually worth that much? I believe Wells has significant loan exposure ($50 bil ) to pick-a-pay option ARM's, more than $120 bil of loan exposure to commercial and construction loans and considerable loan exposure to revolving consumer debt ($70 bil ) in the form of credit card and auto loans. At first blush, these would seem to be terrible exposures. And every 1% increase in additional loan impairment (above and beyond the $21 bil already written off) translates into a more than $2 per share hit to tangible common equity. A 10% increase in additional loan impairment makes Wells Fargo stock look a bit overvalued.

Doesn't investing in Wells simply represent a leap of faith that the well-regarded management team will manage through all of this and nothing more? I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that, but it would seem that the hard numbers don't necessarily paint a no-brainer investment scenario based on an intrinsic value. Is this a fair assessment in your mind?
John P' gravatar

John P
Feb 12th, 2009
1 comment

Hey Joe, great post as always. Question: How do you know that there's no more hidden timebombs in Wachovia's balance sheet that would swamp Wellsovia? Off balance sheet SIVs, bad loans that were worse than expected, CDO exposure, etc? Is it possible to glean any of that from the quarterly reports? Or are you solely relying on Wells' management expertise to have sniffed that out during due diligence?

In other words, how do you know this won't turn out to be a BofA-Merrill merger fiasco?
Widemoat' gravatar

Widemoat
Feb 12th, 2009
5 comments

Thanks for your work Joe. I tend to place myself in Vik's camp.

Joe notes: "With an $864.8 billion loan portfolio... $21 billion has already been written off through those provisions for credit losses..."

To state the obvious, these are HUGE numbers. A one percentage point swing in the value of these loans has the potential to chew through the majority of owner's earnings for the year. Of course, the opposite can be true on the upside.

So, the crux really is--is the loan book going to be significantly worse in 6 months or a year? With unemployment still doing a nose dive, and many small businesses with sales down 35% or more YOY, I just can't see it being better.

Of course, that doesn't mean the business will be cheaper in a year, or that Wells is a poor investment. But, I do see bargains right now whose future is much clearer to me. I'll be staying in my circle of competence.
ValueVulture' gravatar

ValueVulture
Feb 12th, 2009

Great set of posts Joe! I was wondering if you had thoughts on what George Soros is proposing, and the chances of dilution across the board of all the "too big to fail" banks, including Wellsovia.

"In my view, an equity injection scheme based on realistic valuations, followed by a cut in minimum capital requirements for banks, would be much more effective in restarting the economy. The downside is that it would require significantly more than $1,000bn of new capital. It would involve a good bank/bad bank solution, where appropriate. That would heavily dilute existing shareholders and risk putting the majority of bank equity into government hands."

http://www.georgesoros.co...
Madhawk' gravatar

Madhawk
Feb 12th, 2009
12 comments

The question in my mind is not if Wells Fargo will fall of the face of the earth. The answer to that question is clearly no. The question in my mind is: will they have to raise additional equity capital and dilute the current shareholders? They will have to raise capital if there current capital ratios fall too far. This is like a covenant on loan, but in this case the covenant is with the banking regulators. This covenant is what Soros is talking about with relaxing capital requirements. I'll admit I don't know WFC's current capital ratios. The first question I have for you Joe is: have you stress tested those ratios. If you have, what kind of writeoff scenarios did you use?

If WFC is in danger of tripping these convenants or feels like they might be in danger, then they will have to raise capital in a market that's current extracting quite a toll for such financing. It looks like Buffet's toll is an expected 15% annual return. On a side note, given Bershire's cost of capital, especially if you include the insurance float, a 15% return is adding serious chunks of value to BRK.

Using the midpoint between $125 billiion and $170 billion or $147.5 billion as the expected valuation, it looks like at today's mkt. cap. of $67 billion the expected total return is 120% or 30% annually over a three year period (2009-2012). If equity capital is needed, what's it going to cost which will depend on how much is needed and available? How does that effect your return expectations? What are the probability weightings for all of these that you used to justify a 10% position?

The novel thing about evaluating companies that could trip covenant triggers is that the going concern value in normal times become less relevant. They may not get to normal times, or the ownership/capital structure may have changed when they get there. Anybody looking at Alcoa or Rio Tinto or a large number of smaller companies as equity investments is asking similar covenant related questions.
Simon G' gravatar

Simon G
Feb 12th, 2009

Joe, thanks for the great post,

I am trying to understand why there was a deposit-run at Wachovia which ultimately sealed it's fate. How can we be sure that won't happen to Wells. I understand that Wachovia was in a bad shape but it seems to me that its become a confidence issue which could also threaten other banks, even Wells.

Any comment?

Thanks.
Simon G' gravatar

Simon G
Feb 12th, 2009

Joe, another question, you said:

"Wachovia carried its various business segments at a certain value on its balance sheet. When its stock price tanked, the "market value" of those businesses sank to prices well below the value carried on the balance sheet; so, Wachovia wrote off - or "impaired the goodwill of" - those segments to the tune of $18.9 billion."

How come Wells fargo hasn't faced (or won't face) a similar issue? Is it to do with different accounting methods?

Thanks.
Simon G' gravatar

Simon G
Feb 12th, 2009

Joe, one more question if i may:

Apparently, it was the change in tax rules which prompted Wells to acquire Wachovia. I am not quite clear on how it will impact future earnings. Obviously its a benefit - provided wells actually makes a profit next few quarters- but to what extent?

Thanks
Madhawk' gravatar

Madhawk
Feb 13th, 2009
12 comments

An added point that I remembered later is that in the event that Wells has to go raise equity capital because they preceive or are in danger of violating some banking regulators capital ratio tests. The pool from which to raise addtional equity capital is limited by banking regulations as well. Beyond a certain percentage of ownership of a bank/bank holding company an equity investor must themselves register as a bank holding company and be subject to further regulation and reporting. This is a rule some private equity investors have been trying to get changed. They may be willing to invest capital, but they don't want the banking regulators snooping around and they don't necessarily want to increase transperency of their holdings. Limiting the pool of potential new equity capital will drive up the cost of that capital. The cost of government provided capital is of course very high. Now, if don't think that Wells will need to raise equity capital then there's no need to worry. However, if you think there's a chance new capital will be needed then the amount and cost of the capital should be included in your valuation.
Simon G' gravatar

Simon G
Feb 14th, 2009

Another question:

Since wells realized much of wachovia's losses through purchase accounting upfront, there will be less chance of further loss provisions on Wachovias business. So essentially, Wells can add in Wachovias net income without provisions, from this Q1 onwards. Am i right?

Thanks.
Santa' gravatar

Santa
Feb 15th, 2009

I am wondering whether or not Wellsovia wil renew my credit line this upcoming Xmas.
Wow -- a lot of great comments and questions. I guess we're all trying to expand our sphere of confidence and competence during this banking crisis :)

Vik M.: All investing is a leap of faith of sorts -- faith that things will eventually return to "normal" in your businesses and in the economy. On book value alone, Wellsovia isn't cheap. Still, with its strong cash position and earnings ability, it is one of the few big banks with a high likelihood of surviving and thriving when things return to normal. If we wait to see how this plays out, odds are that we'll miss our opportunity because we'll be late to the game.

I think there's a lot of uncertainty in the future, which is why I'm committing just 10% to the position. Then again, there will always be uncertainty. I still contend that we need to invest as though, five and ten years from now, this credit and real estate mess will be behind us and we should invest accordingly. In the alternative scenario -- that the country and all the banks fail -- it really doesn't matter how we invest because our portfolio, currency, paychecks, etc. would all be just about worthless.

John P: The Merrill/BofA debacle wasn't just the Merrill/BofA debacle. Bank of America made a stupid acquisition of Countrywide which helped compound the problem. Countrywide and Merrill were both in very weak, dire positions, and Bank of America may not be strong enough to support both. Keep in mind: Countrywide, as a business, is basically worthless and nothing but a cash drain on BofA. Bank of America overvalued the "brand" of Countrywide, and that will likely come back to haunt them.

Unfortunately, Bank of America's strategy over the past 18 months has been little more than a comedy of errors, to the detriment of shareholders. If BofA didn't buy Countrywide, Merrill would have been an easier poison to swallow.

If you compare Wachovia's balance sheet to that of Merrill's, both held toxic assets; but, Wachovia was not as "pedal-to-the-medal" as Merrill was.

Widemoat: I'm going in to Wells knowing that they'll have additional write-offs and losses. As you said -- I have no idea if it will be cheaper tomorrow...or when they're done with those write-offs. Based on their cash position, they could suffer another 15% of losses in that $840 billion portfolio (net of the $21 billion reserve they already have). Plus, with the ability to generate about $13 billion a year in excess cash (before write-offs to the credit reserve), things could get a lot worse before Wells Fargo is brought to its knees.

Obviously, its a company and situation that needs to be closely monitored.

ValueVulture: I think Soros is brilliant. In my opinion, I think that the government is handling this okay, but not entirely perfect. To me (and I'm a simple guy, so excuse my mindset), it doesn't make a whole lot of sense the way that banks are being bailed out.

For example, Joe and Jane American get a $250,000 mortgage from Citi. Joe loses his job and they can't afford to make their mortgage payments. Rather than help Joe and Jane American, our bailout is designed to help Citi recoup from the interest and principal payments they hoped to receive from Joe and Jane American. Joe and Jane are still out on their ear.

As far as the losses in the "alphabet soup" of investments these banks took on, tough noodles (to be polite). Take your losses and move on. Now, if we want the banks to survive those losses, I agree that they should be given temporary relief from the minimum capital requirements. Because Joe and Jane's checking account is secured by the FDIC, there's no major harm in lowering that requirement.

I don't think a bad bank is the answer; but, we have to reign in these "assets." I don't like throwing money at the problem. The alternative -- full deleveraging -- would be very painful. It wouldn't hurt people that don't have to rely heavily on credit; but, for the majority of Americans that rely on credit, deleveraging, allowing the losses and letting businesses fail, and going back to a "cash" society would be very painful.

So, we have somewhat of a morality issue. Do we put people through the pain so that they can learn their lesson (that is, maybe you shouldn't have bought that new car even though you could "afford" the payments); or, do we deleverage only to the extent necessary to get things back on track and hope that people learn from this.

Madhawk: Wells might have to raise capital if the situation gets much much worse. Otherwise, I think that they've done a good job so far of anticipating or quickly reacting to problems, building their cash position, and growing their business over the past year and a half.

I don't think it's likely, based on the current conditions or even a moderate worsening of current conditions, that Wells will need to raise capital. If, however, things worsen and I'm wrong, then I'll have to reasses at that time.

Simon G: Try to keep in mind that throughout the second half of 2008, people were terrified. Washington Mutual had failed, a money market "broke the buck," Bear Stearns, etc. They let the stock market dictate their actions. With Wachovia's stock down some 60% by the end of September and with the widely held belief that every company holding mortgages was doomed to fail, people reacted. It wasn't the well-informed, research-oriented analysts pulling their checking account, it was Joe and Jane American, who heard some analysts on CNBC say, "XYZ bank is toxic," and, "...lines outside the bank in the Great Depression," and, of course, "You need to diversify -- buy our mutual funds."

As for the goodwill amortization, Wells might face a similar write-down if its stock price continues to fall. Remember that these are accounting conventions that don't require cash. The only drawback to these write-downs would be taxable gains at some point in the future if the segments were sold, or larger non-cash amortization charges if the banks were acquired at a high price at some point in the future.

The tax law change allows Wells Fargo to take Wachovia's losses and write them off against future income. Before the change in the tax code, Wachovia's losses would have been "built-in" to Wachovia in prior periods so Wells Fargo would derive no benefit (on a tax basis) from acquiring Wachovia. Now, Wells can build a tax credit (so to speak) with those losses so that, in future profitable years, Wells Fargo can offset those profits with prior losses, creating a non-taxable event.

Finally, the extent to which the losses were realized or goodwill was amortized isn't known yet. It will depend on the market for those "toxic assets" and the mark-to-market regulations. I wouldn't bet that Wells is done taking writedowns or losses. Instead, I'd say this: If they didn't aggressively take those writedowns today, future writedowns would probably be much more substantial.

Wells will be able to add in Wachovia's net income from this point on (as opposed to Q4 2008 when the two were still separate); but, it may still incur additional losses due to bad assets and it will continue to take amortization "losses" (non-cash charges) due to the acquisition.

Santa: I'm trying really hard to be a good boy this year. Keep an eye on me.
ValueVulture' gravatar

ValueVulture
Feb 17th, 2009

Looks like in Uncle Warren's latest 13f, he sold almost 7 mil shares of Johnson & Johnson, over 5 mil shares of US Bancorp, and over 4 mil shares of Conoco-Phillips... Any thoughts on why he is selling these stocks when he probably still has billions in excess cash and most are near their lows?
ValueVulture' gravatar

ValueVulture
Feb 17th, 2009

Correction: He's sold over 33 million shares of JNJ. Yikes.
ValueVulture' gravatar

ValueVulture
Feb 17th, 2009

Things are moving fast-- Obama moving towards nationalization of weak banks?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0...
Rene' gravatar

Rene
Feb 17th, 2009
80 comments

Buffett kept all of his WFC stock though, so there's a vote of confidence for Joe's pick. If it goes much lower I just might join Warren and Joe and buy a few shares. I still consider it a big gamble. I don't see any way out of the mess other than nationalizing the Zombie banks after Geithner "stress tests" them. So the question is, is WFC a Zombie or not? If it is not, it may benefit from the "last man standing" effect. Of course, the housing death spiral has to be halted, otherwise the "last man standing" will fall as well and no one will be standing.
Crispy789' gravatar

Crispy789
Feb 17th, 2009

Now does that change the picture for JNJ or any other issue for that matter? One of the negatives of following such a prominent investor on 13fs is your own thought process might be muddied because of their actions. If he bot he must be right and if he sold then its no longer a viable investment since he must surely see what a mortal soul doesnt?

Now as lots of uncertain economic climate is now being built into the picture...the original thesis projecting of projecting a 15% growth rate of the past 10 years(when the GDP was growing in clips of 3-5% per year) straight out into the future now seems a bit lofty...





Rene' gravatar

Rene
Feb 17th, 2009
80 comments

Buffett didn't sell ALL of his JNJ or PG, he sold some. Why? Because he's getting 10% or more interest in his loans to financially strapped entities like G.E. and because he is seeing better opportunities in other companies. There's nothing wrong with JNJ, relax.
ValueVulture' gravatar

ValueVulture
Feb 18th, 2009

Looks like Buffett also posted additional SC 13G's-- according to those, they are 22 mil shares more of WFC and 5 mil shares more of COP when compared to their listings in the 4Q08 13F-HR. Which listing is the most recent? I looked up some of the rules, but still unsure what the specific filing requirements are for the SC 13G... Does the SC 13G mean Buffett has recently added to his WFC and COP holdings?
I'm not touching my JNJ stake right now. The worst thing that any investor can do is follow a guru into or out of a stock. I'm going to post on the JNJ sale in a bit.

As for Wells Fargo, Buffett picked up 2.2 million shares for his own account -- reported on the 13G recently filed. Buffett owns 2.24 million shares and Berkshire controls 314,632,068 shares.
crispy789' gravatar

crispy789
Feb 18th, 2009
5 comments

I think the issue is not whether or when Buffet et al bot or sold out added or reduced.
In my opinion...and I admit my opinion is speculative and I might be totally wrong on this ..but if Buffet was managing 10 million dollars or less I dont think he would bother with JNJ or even KO etc or many other things he has in his mutli-billion dollar insurance portfolio.



Dan' gravatar

Dan
Feb 20th, 2009
36 comments

Hey Joe - I've been watching this thread closely and was wondering if you still believe WFC is a (now screaming) buy in light of the nationalization concerns.
Screaming. I don't think that a universal nationalization of the banks is even on the table. Instead, I think this is media sensationalism at its finest. Someone mentions the word, another picks it up and gets ratings, and pretty soon it's the headline, top story, and already "truth."

Maybe Citigroup and/or Bank of America need to be put into receivership — or "nationalized." In addition, we'll likely have hundreds, if not thousands, more mid-size and small banks go under. To think that such a scenario would automatically mean that all banks -- good, bad, or otherwise -- must be nationalized is ridiculous.

The only way I see Wells getting nationalized is if:
  1. things end up much worse than I expect (which is ugly just the same); or,
  2. our government has the audacity to universally take over the banking sector.
The first point is always a possibility, which is why we're able to buy the business at such a discount. With so many other options available and with how stupid and dangerous it is to nationalize the entire banking sector, I don't see that scenario playing out. In a capitalistic society, no matter how "socialized" you think we're becoming to curtail the crisis, the government can not wipe out the shareholders of a solvent, profitable company — bank or not.

Calling for universal bank nationalization is great TV. It's great media. And a lot of people will profit from saying it because it is sensational — and sensational puts them on TV, in the papers, and on the air. Take optimism and pessimism out of the equation, and look at it from a realistic perspective: Why nationalize a bank that doesn't presently need to be nationalized?

Universal bank nationalization? Right now, it's more media hype than intelligent fiscal policy. I won't go so far as to say it's entirely off the table — it's always on the table because things can always get worse. It's just not on the table right now.
Simon G' gravatar

Simon G
Feb 22nd, 2009

Well put Joe,

In fact I read a recent article (Unfortunately can't find it again), that legally, they can't actually take over a bank unless they can show it's worthless, otherwise they would have to buy it off shareholders.

I think if anything, the government would want to recognize and reward banking firms that have been conservative in the past and have been - as Buffett mentioned in october - "pumping more and more liquidity into the economy" during the current credit crisis.

trampjuicerocks' gravatar

trampjuicerocks
Feb 22nd, 2009
2 comments

One of the key originators of the nationalization observation and the 'too big to fail banks' is Noriel Roubini. Here is what he has to say on Wells.
"This too-big-to-fail problem has now become an even-bigger-to-fail problem as the current approach has lead weak banks to take over even weaker banks.
Merging two zombie banks is like have two drunks trying to help each other to stand up.

The JPMorgan takeover of insolvent Bear Stearns and WaMu;
the Bank of America takeover of insolvent Countrywide and Merrill Lynch;
and the Wells Fargo takeover of insolvent Wachovia show that the too-big-to-fail monster has become even bigger.

In the Wachovia case you had two wounded institutions (Citi and Wells Fargo) bidding for a zombie insolvent one. Why? Because they both knew that becoming even bigger-to-fail was the right strategy to extract an even larger bailout from the government"

these Analyists sort of back this up.
http://globaleconomicanal...
http://boombustblog.com/2...

BTW:How much does Wells hold in these off balance sheet entities (QSPE's) which the shareholder is on the hook for? Can anyone find out from the small print?

I don't agree with Joe that its armageddon if Shareholders are wiped out and banks are nationalised - the buffers of capital from shareholders, bondholders are there before taxpayers have to stump up, and the currency and nation put at risk. Then there is the advantage of having Wells, Citi, briefly taken over and broken up into smaller parts which are not too big to fail monsters.

Amit' gravatar

Amit
Feb 23rd, 2009

Joe, I have a fundamental question about your investment pick in Vachovia.
Before I ask it, I just want to let it be known that I respect your choice and I am confident you have done your due dilligence.

However, reading the blog makes me wonder if your not following the principle of investing in something that's Flat out obvious? ("If you have to think too much... throw it in the basket"

Anyhow, awesome post regardless Mr. Ponzio,


Jae Jun' gravatar

Jae Jun
Feb 24th, 2009
12 comments

I wish making money was as simple as that Amit. Even if something was flat out obvious, you would still need to think through it a lot.

If we never think about new things and throw it in the basket, we'll never improve our own circle of competence and always end up looking for the same things.

I applaud Joe for trying new things with financials, although I dont intend to for a while, and for thinking things through
Noriel Roubini, like many others, did a great job predicting the crisis. Whether or not he can predict the outcome is yet to be seen. He and Soros keep talking about bank failures on a global level, but I don't take that as "universal" failures. That combined with the media hype of universal nationalization creates a very bleak picture. In time, we'll see a lot of bank failures — both in the US and abroad. We may even see, as Roubini predicts, some countries go under because their banks are "too big to save."

That said, I maintain my original position: Why would a perfectly solvent, healthy bank go under or be nationalized? I'm speaking in generalities — say, a bank that has absolutely no "creative" exposure. Would that bank survive? If so, would banks that did a great job of managing risk survive?

Unless we have universal nationalization (which would not be armageddon, but very unhealthy for a capitalistic system), then we have to look at the alternative: Bad banks will fail and healthy banks will emerge stronger. Why stronger? The healthy banks will acquire the assets and deposits of the failed banks, but not all the "toxic assets" that caused that bank to fail. The "toxic assets" would be transferred to the government's balance sheet, just as was done recently when Pinnacle Bank failed:

As of December 31, 2008, Pinnacle Bank had total assets of approximately $73 million and total deposits of $64 million. In addition to assuming all of the deposits of the failed bank, including those from brokers, Washington Trust Bank agreed to purchase approximately $72 million in assets at a discount of $7.6 million. The FDIC will retain the remaining assets for later disposition.

Washington Trust bought the assets at a discount, save a few that were too ugly to hold. Those "assets" went to the FDIC for later sale.

Every time a bank fails, confidence falls. Every time a bank fails, another bank can grow stronger. Our job is to find out which banks will emerge stronger, or walk away from banks entirely.

That leads me to Amit's question. The fact that a company or situation requires a lot of thought doesn't mean it has to go into the "too hard" pile. The concept of "no brainer" investing is not that we shouldn't think, but that, upon careful and thorough analysis, an investment opportunity leaps out at us.

I look at GM and immediately put it in the "too hard" pile — not because the numbers are hard, or because the business is hard, but because I would have to come up with scenarios in my mind that would solve GM's very difficult business problems — scenarios that would ultimately have to play out perfectly.

I don't think that an idea will leap off the page after spending just five minutes with an annual report. Instead, I think that, as investors, we need to spend time learning about the business. We need to get an idea of the business' sustainability and value. Once you've learned about the business, it will or will not jump out at you. Once you've valued it and checked the current price, it will or will not jump out at you. That said, few, if any, opportunities will leap off Page 3 of the first annual report we read.
Brian' gravatar

Brian
Feb 28th, 2009
4 comments

Joe,

Appreciate your article. Well thought out.

However, I have some questions which I cannot figure out. In WFC 2008 10K, there is a huge increase in its dealing for off balance sheet arrangement. Last year, WFC does not seems to have dealings in things like QSPEs, VIEs, CDOs, CLOS, etc. But end 2008, their dealings seems to run into over a trillion dollars. Correct me if I am wrong. They state that for the maximum exposure to loss for their involvement in QSPE is $39.6B, VIEs, is $65.3B. I got these date from Note 8 (Securitizations and Variable Interest Entities) from its 08 10K.

Then, its total managed (securitized and owned) loan portfolio jumps from $498B to $2 trillion YOY - of course some are due to the consolidation of WA. But then what I am concerned is its securitized loan portion that jumps from $88B to $1.1T.

These items I think are inherited from WA though but what are the impact to WFC if the economy and credit market turns worst?

Pls enlighten on this items. Most importantly, have Wells Fargo changed their direction in not dealing with these off balance sheet stuffs?

I am a Wells Fargo shareholder but I cannot understand the off balance sheet items portion and its exposure.

Another thing that I need your input. What do you think of WFC tangible common equity to total tangible assets ratio (since this is much focused on)? It seems to be at 2.33% much less than the almost 7% end 2007.
Glenn' gravatar

Glenn
Mar 3rd, 2009
13 comments

Joe,

Had you jumped on a Wells Fargo stage 150 years ago, it would have been a bumpy ride. Looks like nothing has changed and we are in for a bumpy ride today as well. Welcome fellow shareholder (assuming you are still holding onto WFC). I started to accumulate a position in November of 2007. Recognizing that is very difficult to determine an intrinsic value for financial stocks, I relied on my personal association with Wells Fargo as a long term banking customer and simply followed Warren Buffett's lead. The price for WFC has dropped a bit (to say the least) since I acquired it in the fall of 2007 and I decided to sell half of my position last month to take advantage of putting the capital loss on the books (not because I don't like the prospects for WFC). Still holding onto the other half of my position and hoping for better returns in the future.

Glenn
Brian 2' gravatar

Brian 2
Mar 4th, 2009
2 comments

I bought WFC the day before Q3 2008 was announced because I saw it being heavily shorted below what I believed it's intrinsic value was. I had spent a lot of time estimating the intrinsic value for all of the stocks then owned by Buffett. I know I should have sold when it skyrocketed the following opening and when it hit an all time high during the mist of the credit crisis. I knew it was too good to be true, but I believed in Buffett. Fast Forward to now, and I ended up selling out when it dropped to $17. Not because I stopped believing in Buffett, or couldn't handle the loss, but because after I read the combined WFC/WB annual report and Q4 results I was dumbfounded. And the #1 rule is to not invest in something you don't understand.

It's not the same company it once was, i.e. pre-WB. The amount of Tier III assets that WFC is now carrying is just too much to ignore and it's impossible to value. These toxic assets are nearly impossible to unwind and will likely impair free cash flow for decades unless the treasury department actually creates a toxic asset bad bank. The only thing a value investor can do is assume they're worth substantially less than book. at .30 on the dollar it makes WFC overvalued at any price and I think I got caught in a value trap similar the Irish banks that Buffett himself got caught in.

And while I find all of this new talk about tangible-capital ratio ludicrous considering it has never been used for "stress testing" before, it does shed light on the myth commonly believed by WFC shareholders that WFC is the most conservative bank in the country.
valuevulture' gravatar

valuevulture
Mar 4th, 2009

Interesting questions you raise Brian-- would like to hear what Joe says on this one! You have to think Buffett knows this information, so why would he add in Q408?
valuevulture' gravatar

valuevulture
Mar 5th, 2009

Wells now below $8. Either this is another great buying opportunity or Wells is heading for dilution.
valuevulture' gravatar

valuevulture
Mar 5th, 2009

Wells Fargo's Chairman bought 100,000 shares today:

http://idea.sec.gov/Archi...
Brian,

I will write a post up on it. There is some more explaining that goes into this investment, such as analyzing the loan portfolio and the Level 3 "assets."

More to come for sure -- sorry for the delay.
Brian 2' gravatar

Brian 2
May 10th, 2009
4 comments

Joe,

Not sure if there's any update on the queries I mentioned. WFC and banks in general have surged went up from the time I raised those questions which are still lingering.

I am still optimistic on WFC future and its prosperity given the culture and management that is leading. But just to be sure, I would like to know the risk of its off-balance sheet arrangement.

Thanks
simon' gravatar

simon
May 10th, 2009

It's a shame that Wells was forced to raise capital even though as Buffett remarked, they saved FDIC's bacon on wachovia. Just imagine the mess if Citi had gotten wachovia instead!
My next post will be an wrap-up on Wells Fargo. I got caught up in so many topics, that I have to go through and finish them one-by-one. Sorry Brian2 — I'll get to your questions. Thanks for the patience!

simon: No worries on the capital raise — it's not highly dilutive (though I don't agree with Uncle Sam that WFC needs it). Citi got all of their money upfront when they were highly toxic. Clearly the massive derisking at the end of last year helped Wells clean up a lot of Wachovia's toxic mortgage garbage. On a level playing field where nobody received TARP funds, we'd probably see much bigger capital raises today from Citi or BofA than we would see from US Bank or WFC.
Zitron' gravatar

Zitron
Jun 25th, 2009
4 comments

Joe,

I may have missed it, and moreover it may be of little interest, but have you discussed somewhere the possibility of buying bonds and/or preferred of WFC? Even though the bond prices have recovered nicely along with the common stock, the yields are in some cases appealing, especially considering medium-to-long term bonds. And of course, there is always the likelihood that another panic unfolds in the near term, thus improving yields again.

In particular, I am thinking of some subordinated notes/preferred stock with floating rates (say LIBOR 3M 0.5/1%), and which quote at around 60 or 70 cents the dollar. Agreed, the yield is not that great now, but being indexed it is somehow inflation protected, and moreover you have capital gains. And, being senior to the common stock --which is safe in your analysis--, there is little probability of loss.

I am particularly interested, as always, not only in your answer, but in the thought process that would lead you to it.
Brian 2' gravatar

Brian 2
Jun 27th, 2009
4 comments

Hi Joe,

I have another question. Warren Buffettt keeps touting that WFC is the lowest cost producer in terms of its interest paid out on interest-bearing liabilities among all the big banks. Logically, if that is the case, WFC should have a higher ROA than USB. However, historically (in the past decade), USB has a higher ROA than WFC.

The way I look at it, though USB pays out a higher interest on its liabilities, but it has a better efficiency ratio of about 50% versus WFC of 54%. This difference may have caused USB to higher a higher ROA.

So my question is when WEB touts about low-cost producer, he seems to limit just to interest on the liabilities? Wouldn't operating expenses be part of being a low-cost producer?
simon' gravatar

simon
Jul 1st, 2009

Brian 2,

A sizable chunk of USB's business model is payments (transaction fees) which doesn't require assets. That is presumably what pushes up it's ROA. USB is very well managed and the CEO is great but I have slight reservations regarding their payments business which is a commodity type business. I am not sure how sustainable it is in the long run. Also remember Buffetts investment in USB is relatively small at only 2.5% of the portfolio ( http://www.dataroma.com/m... ).

Wells however is a pure vanilla lending business with the best spreads in the industry.
Zitron: If I could get equity-like returns while moving up the corporate ladder, I would definitely take the safety at the same return. Personally I feel as though there is significantly more upside in the common versus the debt — enough to accept the additional risks of being junior. Unless I felt that Wells was going under, I don't really mind being last in line for a liquidation.

Brian2: I wouldn't be quick to compare Wells (or any bank's) results to those of other banks over the past, say, five or six years. A lot of banks had inflated, never-to-be-seen-again revenue streams on mispriced or non-existant assets. Banking ratios are out the window. Instead, you should look through to the business' operations. Without the Wachovia acquisition, Wells operated a lot like the Wal-Mart of banks — undercutting competitors and grabbing market share by leaps and bounds. With Wachovia, it is now cross selling customers, essentially creating "super centers" where it previously had free-standing stores.

If you look back to the early 2000s and earlier, few banks (if any) had profit margins as fat as those of Wells Fargo.
Join The Discussion

Your Name
Feb 9th, 2010

Remember me on this computer
To help keep the F Wall Street website free from comment spam, we require that you have javascript enabled to post a comment. Please turn on javascript and refresh this page to load the comment form.

Joe Ponzio's F Wall Street

Submitting Your Comment

Please wait while your comment is submitted. (It may take a moment.) Comments on F Wall Street are moderated which means that your comment will appear only after it has been reviewed by Joe. Comments are typically reviewed and approved (or denied) quickly, except between 11:30PM and 5:00AM (CST) – Joe has to sleep some time!

Joe Ponzio's F Wall Street

Thank You For Participating!

Thank you for participating on F Wall Street. Once your comment has been approved, it will appear here. While waiting, check out some other articles on the blog or click here to return to the article.

» Buy F Wall Street at Amazon.com

Excel 2007|Excel 2003
(ZIP, 168kb) (ZIP, 138kb)

Search F Wall Street

Powered by Google

Subscribe to F Wall Street

E-mail or RSS updates. And it's free!

Enter your e-mail address below

Sun @ 1:14AM | View comment
mike said,

ROIC is not based on earnings. it's just EBIT * (1-t) / invested capital. The flaw with ROIC...
What The Heck Is CROIC?

Thu @ 8:00AM | View comment
Cale Smith said,

New Ponzio Capital site looks great, Joe, and good to see you back posting!
BreitBurn Energy: Playing the Commodities Crash

Wed @ 5:50PM | View comment
kalidasa said,

in correction to an earlier post, it is Sham Gad(www.gadcapital.com) or www.shamgad.blogspot.com
Hedge Funds and the Early Buffett Partnership

Tue @ 3:29PM | View comment
Joe Ponzio said,

I think it got overheated. I still feel like it's a good long-term holding (if the buy price is right)....
Is Nutrisystem Healthy?

Tue @ 2:48PM | View comment
Nutrisystem Coupon said,

Dude, what happened to this stock? You would think in January this stock would be jumping through the roof...
Is Nutrisystem Healthy?